Michael: You listen to the interview I had done with Tim the Painter and after I talked to Tim he was a very detailed methodical painter. When we looked at what he was making and we compared with the hours that he was putting in we calculated he was working alone for about $5 bucks an hour and he was frustrated and you had listened to the recording and you saw some things that were being overlooked and why don’t we go over a couple of those things. I don’t know if you can remember them, maybe we can just talk about your experience as a professional painter and there is a difference between a professional painter and just someone who hangs up their shingle and says I’m in the painting business, wouldn’t you say?

Bill: Yeah, but I mean the guy who starts out in the back of his car and he can evolve to be a professional it takes time.

Michael: How did you start out?

Bill: Well, my father was a painter and I started out about nine years old and I start with the foundation of the building and by 12-years-old I had worked my way up to the first floor.

Michael: Exterior or interior or all of the above.

Bill: Both.

Michael: Did your dad have a flourishing painting business?

Bill: Well yeah, I mean it’s how he put bread on the table and he did that for 30, 40 years.

Michael: How big of a business was it?

Bill: Oh it was small, you know, maybe two people at the most. It was basically a one man operation and that’s what I’m saying, you know, if people are paying you can have a one man shop and make a lot of money or you can have a crew, and if you have a crew you have to have at least nine people before you can see yourself off from painting. Say you have a crew of nine people you have to still be on the tools after you have nine people you can keep them working then you can, you know, go out and book the jobs yourself and become a business owner. But in Tim’s situation he’s a one man shop and he’s going from patron-to-patron or customer-to- customer. I look at my business in terms of acquiring quality people patron, people that I want to service that’s what people pay for, I did a lot of work in Manhattan on Park Avenue and Sutton Place it was the high rent districts. As a matter of fact, I just want to let you know that one day in the mid-80s I made a $1000 dollars painting one ceiling.

Michael: Wow.

Bill: That’s right. It’s a request from the United Nations at the United Nations apartments and these duplexes going up and down and the living room is very long, but the question is how would I get there it’s about the preparation, you know, what I had to go through to get there. You suddenly woke up one day and say “Okay, here I am hire me to do your ceiling.” You know and I think this is the think that we can focus on because it’s the little things that add up. We’re building trust we want to build trust that’s the main thing.

Michael: Right.

Bill: People can trust you, you don’t have to be the best but if you’re trustworthy that’s what counts, if people like you that’s what counts. For example, one day I was anxious to get this job done and I had two guys working with me we were papering a room.

Michael: And when you say papering putting wallpaper up, right?

Bill: Yeah, during those days wallpaper was a big thing. But we were matching the ceiling to the wall and it was one accent wall other C- walls would need different material. So we banged it up went to lunch had a good time and came back and found out that we had hung it upside down, meaning that the wall did not match the ceiling it was going the wrong way. I was completely mortified I had been referred to the people by a paint store, so I went and explained what happened to the lady and she said “Well, come back tomorrow, you know, talk to my husband.” And I came back the next day and on the kitchen table there was a pencil he says “Take this pencil, Bill.” I said “What’s that?” Well, this pencil has an eraser on it, erase what you did and we’ll just continue going on and we’ll deduct from what I owe you from what you with the mistake. What I’m trying to say is that’s what people look for, if they can trust you, its okay if you make a mistake, you know, go with it. So that’s the main thing be trustworthy, I come on time, I’m there. If you say 8:00 I’m there at 7:55. I do my work, I’m neat, I’m clean, I’m cordial to you and that’s the job.

Michael: From your experience looking at one man painters, you know, just inexperienced guys what are some of the mistakes you’ve seen them make in maybe not building trusts? Where are they falling short?

Bill: It’s people skills, its personal interaction and it depends on what a person has done in his or her life. What matters is how you interact with people. One of the things I go back to you as saying that Tim or any contractor should know the personality types, you should know these things because then you can mirror back almost and the Neuro-linguistic programming method. I prefer the anagram system myself but even tools that I use - but basically I learned from my father, I watched him interact with people, you know, he was a guy who could get along with most people and I watched that so I patterned myself after him and the people he couldn’t get along with I learned how to get along with them as well.

Michael: That’s good people skills is where it’s at.

Bill: You know here’s another example, I was out doing a guy’s job he was a practicing Jewish gentlemen and on Friday we’d have to leave early because they have, you know, the religious day. So we pulled out his credenza in the living room and painted behind there and, you know, put it back and came back Monday and he says “Bill, I’m so impressed.” He said “What happened, what happened? Well, I pulled out the credenza over the weekend because I knew he wouldn’t get behind it and you had painted behind it.” I’m saying “Well, what would you expect this is what I do?” So those are the kind of things how I have ingratiated myself with the people.

Michael: You currently have a painting business.

Bill: No, I don’t paint anymore, Michael. I just can’t do it anymore. I had some I guess chemical reactions that affected my health and I just can’t psychologically deal with it anymore. But the interview you did with Tim just sparked something so I reached out.

Michael: I appreciate that. I’ve got it hear in front of me your ideas they’re wonderful. One thing we noticed about Tim is that all he was doing was painting when you wrote to me and said that there’s other frequent opportunities that he’s overlooking. Can we discuss some of them some of the topics here are cleaning refrigerators or window cleaning, carpet cleaning, oven cleaning, removing and replacing drapes, snow removal and gutter cleaning.

Bill: The deal is you want to make it a one-stop shop you don’t want them to have to go to anybody else to get those kinds of services. Now, unfortunately a lot of painting contractors don’t even bother with those items so that’s good that means that there’s more room for me. They see washing windows as being something women do. They see cleaning behind refrigerators as women’s work or whatever, but it’s a valuable service. Like you suggested to Tim he become a handyman, well here it is he can be a handyman but here I am saying “Look, you know, I know that your refrigerator has to be cleaned out behind the refrigerator or the lent in your dryer I’ll do that for you and I’ll do some windows for you too.” So when it comes time for a little job “Oh Bill, would you mind touching up the hallway it’s a little dirty.” Well, you got work.

Michael: Do you remember back when painting with your dad was he the master at this?

Bill: Oh yeah he was very good. He learned from his brother and my Uncle Jim learned from my Uncle John, they were very good. What they did my father was very quick and he worked back in the days – I remember distinctly we went on one job where the gentlemen of one of the house wouldn’t let us use rollers because in those days rollers were just first coming in and my dad he would paint with him and his brush and he would paint a whole room with that, that’s how it was done back in those days, so he was very quick at that. Now, every painter has its own style he was a quick style. Now my style is not as quick but the reason for that is I give more attention to the details than he did. So my basically approach was if I’m going to do this I want to get paid top dollar. I want to get the most I can. It’s like a game you play, you know, it’s like I’m the best tailor. Well, if I’m the best tailor I want to get the most money. So I have to make you feel and believe I’m the best tailor. How do I do that? Well, I give you the best service I can provide you.

Michael: Let’s take it step-by-step. Were you working mostly off the referrals in your painting business or were you generating your own leads?

Bill: Well, I did both but when I was working in Park Avenue Sutton Place it was all referrals.

Michael: So the referrals were pretty strong because you were already positioned as an expert, right.

Bill: Yeah, see I created the Park Avenue business myself because what happened was my father didn’t hang wallpaper I hung wallpaper, I did decorative painting. So I went to decorators at Bloomingdales - Bloomingdales is a big department store and they sell furniture and they have decorators that decorate people’s homes - so I went there and I marketed to the ladies in the decorating department.

Michael: Do you remember when you first did this?

Bill: Sure that was 1980 that’s when I started doing the wallpaper.

Michael: And what did you say to these ladies? Who did you seek out?

Bill: Well, there was two there was Joan and there was – I forgot the other ladies name her husband was a football player, I forgot her name – but anyway, I went there and say “Hey, how are you doing? My name is Bill Jordon here’s my portfolio check me out.” I’m a graduate of professional wallpaper school I do all these things and look at my work, man.” They said “Oh okay.” And the next day or two I sent some flowers and went back and talked to them again, so then they gave me a small job a bathroom or something. I knocked it out, did a good job and went from there.

Michael: And so was that a steady flow of leads for you?

Bill: Yeah it was with other leads as well. Now, here’s the thing. One of the leads I got at Bloomingdales was a lady name Judy Woodland her husband was the partner at one of the largest brokerage firms in the country at that time Forest and Luke and that’s how I got the Park Avenue because they knew that all the people they dealt with were Vice Presidents of [inaudible 12:30] Bank or President of this bank or whatever, whatever, and that’s how I got to Park Avenue.

Michael: Did you actively pursue referrals or did they just come naturally?

Bill: The thing about having contact with the decorator is that the decorator usually can lock up the whole deal. The lady in Park Avenue she locked up the whole deal I had no dealing with the customer on the business side.

Michael: So the decorators hired you out for the job.

Bill: Yeah. See she controlled everything.

Michael: Okay.

Bill: The ones I got from the New Jersey Bloomingdales store once I got the referral the customer was mine so it was up to me then to maintain that relationship.

Michael: Right, so that’s what I wanted. So once you maintained that relationship you would leverage that and get referrals from that relationship. Now, was that an act of process or did that just come automatically?

Bill: Well, it’s both but I learned that the way to make it happen on a continuous level is to actively pursue it. Now, what I did was I would have a package that I’d give the consumer, the prospect and in there I’d have a letter with the testimonial and then I would say I enjoy what I do, I’ve been doing it so long and, you know, I’m looking to working forward with you and if I meet or exceed your standards I would appreciate six referrals. And so I would find that some people even before I started the job would have the referrals there for me and I would give them a percentage off of – I’d give them the percentage twice I’d give them a certificate. See, the thing is I’d treat them in a way that they hadn’t been treated before as far as I know. I gave them a certificate like you would get a certificate from a department store. Here’s a 15% discount coupon Mr. Senoff and for every person you refer to me who signs on I’m going to give you 15% of that job or I’ll give you 5% off of your next painting purchases. For more exclusive interviews on business, marketing, advertising and copywriting go to Michael Senoff’s HardToFindSeminars.com

Michael: I got you so the person you gave the six referrals if any of those referrals use your painting services then you get 15% of the job.

Bill: Well, it was only 5%. I don’t know the exact number I’d say.

Michael: They’d get either a discount on services…

Bill: Exactly.

Michael: …or cash.

Bill: Exactly.

Michael: Stop right there because that’s very key in a referral system. There’s got to be something in it for them other than just them giving you free business. Would you think by offering them an inducement, whether it was discounted services or cash, really made that work a lot better than if you didn’t?

Bill: Yeah, sure it works because you see it’s like, I forgot who said it but it was some great speaker who said it, everybody likes to be bribed even the rich guys, even if it’s a $1 item they say “Look, I got this thing.” And so now you see in the painting or decorating or construction industry we have so many horrible stories about people getting abuse where I come in and say “Hey, I do all your windows, I do all this, I do that and I give you money back.” What are they going to do? They’re going to brag to their friends.

Michael: In your business you had Bloomingdales feeding you clients and business and then you were generating as well your own clients through your own referral systems, were you doing any direct mail or direct marketing to generate clients?

Bill: No, that was a foreign concept to me. I didn’t do that we ads in the paper but that didn’t really work out well as there was so much competition in the paper. See the area in which I lived that Bergen County New Jersey it’s a very affluent area, a lot of competition a lot of guys in the newspaper so I discovered the best way was once I got someone once you get that person it’s cheaper to market to that person than to try to get a new person. So I would always market to my existing clientele.

Michael: There was no direct mail generation, no cold calling and it was all referral business.

Bill: I didn’t call people on the phone but if I saw some activity in the neighborhood I would go over and introduce myself, but no cold calling, no mailing.

Michael: Well, let’s talk about referral business that was referred. Other than the Bloomingdales referral you go into a home, they were referred by one of your previous clients, when you go in there they’re there for you to do some painting but you’re there for a different reason. What else are you looking for in that home or than what they needed at that time painting wise?

Bill: Well, once you get a client acquisition. We’re looking forward down the road we’re not just looking for okay, here’s a job let’s see how we can get in and out as fast as we can and make some money. We want to say “Okay, how can we leverage this situation into continuing our efforts. How can we prosper? How can we make more money?”

Michael: You let the client know that you do more than just painting?

Bill: Well, yes. See it’s a very subtle thing, you know, even if you have a referral it’s always you have to resell yourself again, right. So each person’s different, each person has different needs. So I don’t take it for granted because I have a referral and I have a job. I go in and my standard approach basically is to make that person feel comfortable and I will try to acknowledge something wonderful about their home [inaudible 17:20] or whatever, you know, we start chatting about that but you go through the home. As we go through the assignment I start showing them different things that have not been or need to be done, which they can use to distinguish me from someone else who they may be considering.

Michael: Give me an example.

Bill: Well okay for example, many times you can look at say your baseboard in your home, I’m sure you have a well done home, but if you look at your baseboard there may be gaps between the baseboard and the molding at the bottom.

Michael: Right, the wall.

Bill: Yeah.

Michael: Yes.

Bill: So now if he sees that I say oh wow, do you see that over there. Look at that. Of course, you know we’re going to fill that up with caulkin that’s not going to look like that, but that’s kind of what we do give you a complete custom job, Mr. Senoff. And, you know, it’s just part of the general package. And by the way what I’d like you to do more or less by reading through the package and reading through all our procedures there’s like 30 steps I go through preparing your room. Thirty steps? Yeah.

Michael: You talk about the package. You come in pre-prepared to each with a package what is this package, what does it consist of, why do you have it and what’s in it for you by having it?

Bill: Well, what’s in it for me by having it is it’s almost like no one does it. How do you know what’s a good job? You don’t really know. I can come over with a nice truck, I can be referred but you don’t know what I’m going to really do in your home. So I came across a situation I said “Look, let me put down what I’m going to do step-by- step.

Michael: Was this something your dad was doing or you came up with?

Bill: No, he wasn’t doing that.

Michael: And so you came up with this.

Bill: Yeah.

Michael: Okay, go ahead.

Bill: I said well, look let me break it down. You know there’re different painting finishes we have a high gloss, we have eggshell, we have different finishes that we can use and each one has a different affect and each one is called for on different locations so I’m going to explain that to you. Here’s one that I always get them on. LRV Light Reflective Value, take your standard paint chart, look at the color on there, so those colors are matched by numbers from a scale from 0 to 100 and I would say well this color here has a 66 LRV value and, you know, there might be too dark for you I would recommend something like maybe 78 or 80. What’s that? Oh, I’m glad you asked. So I’m showing that I’m different, I’m neat and I know stuff.

Michael: What’s some more, these are good.

Bill: Now, what we do is I’m getting back to the written stuff. Okay, we do the different finishes. Then you see when we set up your room there’s an art to setting up your room. Everybody knows you put this furniture in the middle of the room, everybody knows that, but now I’m going to put that down on paper for you I’m going to put down paper. Let’s say you have hardwood floors, what am I going to do for your hardwood floors? Everybody puts down drop cloths I’m going to put down paper first lots of paper.

Michael: Why?

Bill: Why? Because you see the drop cloths on wood they slip and what happens is they can slip and dust, first of all, and then paint can get on your hardwood floor and you don’t want that. Of course, we go out and clean up but we don’t want to do that and waste time for me. So what I do is I invest time and I tape the paper to the edge of the room all the way around and then I’ll put like a two mill plastic sheet to cover your furniture and tape that to the papers so now there’s no dust getting on your furniture. Then I take the drop cloths and put them down over the paper so now we’re covered because when we sand in between, you know, first you sand down, you wash the walls then, you know, you take the drops out you shake them put them back down, put your first coat, you sand, do the same process. Every painter is different everyone has its own technique but this I write down for you to see. So now you’re saying oh wow.

Michael: So you’re going over what you’re going to be doing in their home. You’re showing them your process you’re involving them in the process.

Bill: Of course, yes, right. And then as I said any time if there’s something that you see that you don’t like, that you’re not comfortable with please let me know.

Michael: Tell me what else you’re telling them.

Bill: The main thing is there’s like a list – well, I have a book also I’ll get to that in a minute – but there’s a list of things that I show. You know taking off the light fixtures, taking off the door knobs, taking off your curtains, and we put all these things in plastic bags and put them in a safe place see so we don’t lose them. And then, of course, once you do that then we go into the steps and preparation and types of preparation we’re going to use, you scan the walls, you plaster, we spackle, whatever we have to do. One of the things here is like for your information what is a finish? That’s where we’re talking about high gloss, eggshell, and flat. I tell you what the benefit is for each one, the caveat and how to clean each one, that’s important. Now, at the end of the job as far as cleaning I give you a bottle of Silver Gleem. Silver Gleem is a biodegradable cleanser I want you to use that, that’s free of charge Mr. Senoff; you can get rid of a lot of those toxic chemicals you have under your kitchen sink and use this if you like.

Michael: That’s a nice touch, yeah.

Bill: The ladies like that because it’s free. I forgot the standard work procedures, you know, you have general procedures for pre- preparation. We have standard preparation procedures include 30 of those standard application procedures how we’re going to apply this stuff ceilings, walls, windows, trims, baseboards, in order how we do that all that’s right there for you to see.

Michael: Are you going through all this with each customer or do some customers they don’t care they just let’s just do the job?

Bill: I don’t really go step-by-step I just go generally and if someone wants to know I’ll say okay, well you know you can check the package and you can check it out for yourself, but this is what we do. You’ll find it very thorough and when they look at it they say “Wow, yeah.”

Michael: This is what separates you as a professional from all these amateurs out there. An amateur would just show up with his stuff and say “I’m ready to get going” they’ll offer nothing.

Bill: Well, what they do is they show up with a clipboard and they’ll walk around and take notes. That’s nothing wrong with that but when you make your presentation, because this I what I do…

Michael: It’s a higher end presentation.

Bill: Yeah and what I do is I write my contracts on a partial paper and that gives an aged look, it gives it a use of quality, authenticity, right, and then I’ll give them a copy of the proposal/contract now I have written across it Your Copy. At certain times you figure this out.

Michael: Do you think you generally could get more for your jobs than your competitors?

Bill: Sure. Yeah because I’m getting value, I’m getting value that says well, you know, the other guys didn’t even mention this they don’t do that. See, what I’m saying this is an intangible I’m selling you on something that you can’t see so I have to give you something that you can relate to. It’s like copywriting but if you’re doing it right in front of somebody.

Michael: Right. You’re painting the whole picture for them even before you put that first paint on their wall.

Bill: Exactly. Then let’s say there’s a person who’s a little reluctant. Hey, no problem Mr. Senoff I understand how you feel. I would feel the same way if I were in your situation, but here’s what I can do for you. If you want what I’ll do is I’ll do a test room for you, if you like it we continue if you don’t, don’t pay me.

Michael: Does that work every time?

Bill: Of course it does. How are you going to turn me down? It’s free if you don’t like what I do. You know that room is going to be the best room in the whole job right. I can’t afford not to win on that one. The only way it doesn’t work is win it’s a personality conflict. See in those cases I don’t usually take jobs where I feel that there’s going to be a personality conflict.

Michael: Right you can get an idea right away.

Bill: Yeah. It’s a gut feeling.

Michael: We’ll come back to that but we were talking about selling other services is a very subtle thing and I went into this package you’re creating value, I think that’s great. Now, as you’re in there selling your value are you closing right there before you do any of the work?

Bill: No, here’s how I do it. Okay, so we’re painting your office right, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know Mr. Senoff I noticed that door in the hallway coming through your office it’s kind of grungy. If you don’t mind I’d like to freshen that up for you. You’re going to say yeah. I’m going to say at no charge.

Michael: Alright.

Bill: I got you in a situation that I’m painting added value.

Michael: But have you told me how much my office is going to be?

Bill: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ve already signed the contract.

Michael: When you come in with that package are you ready to paint that day?

Bill: Oh no, no, no.

Michael: You’re on a sales call.

Bill: Yeah we’re just getting acquainted.

Michael: Got it.

Bill: And I say I’m just letting you know painting the picture of what I’m going to do for you and then I’m going to say “Hey, why don’t you check out my package I’m going to leave this with you everything I said to you was in here you can check it over, so you’re going to look at it.” One lady told me she said “The reason why I hired you is because of your presentation. I believe what you do.”

Michael: Got it. Okay, then they call you back, they sign the contract then you go in…

Bill: Right.

Michael: …and you’re looking at their door you’re going to do this door at no charge. Alright, let’s take it from there.

Bill: Okay, so you have a door at no charge. Now, here’s the thing some people are known to want freebies and I don’t give freebies unless I want to. So what I do because my dad he went through a lot of those people always wanting stuff they can do the job they want stuff for free. We’ve done enough I don’t want to do that I don’t like that. So what I do have in my contract I have a change order clause.

Michael: Tell me about that.

Bill: What that means is if you want me to do something outside the original scope of the job I’ll be happy to do it but I have to put a heavy price on it so that it will make you think twice before you ask me to do it. But what I do is if it’s reasonable I’ll say, you know, we have a change order clause Mr. Senoff and that’s like $50 an hour plus materials, but you know what, since we’re here we’ll just knock it off for you no charge. How about that?

Michael: Give me an example.

Bill: We’re in your office, right.

Michael: Yeah. Let’s say you’re about done with the job I say “Hey, Bill can we do this window here I know it wasn’t in the original contract but can we do this window here?”

Bill: Well, you know, sure we can but that goes under the change order clause and that’s $50 an hour. But, you know, don’t worry about it I’ll take care of it for you.

Michael: Okay, so you’ll take care of that for me.

Bill: Right.

Michael: You give it to him.

Bill: Right. Now, what this adds up to is, you see, it’s adding up to another thing to do in the house. See because now see…

Michael: They owe you.

Bill: Not only that but it lowers their defenses because people have their defenses. See painters have a unique situation you can be in someone’s home and be very intimate with them, more intimate than most people in their lives. If you’re doing someone’s bedroom that’s one highest level of intimacy there is.

Michael: Yeah, that’s true.

Bill: So all this plays into the approach, it’s an organic thing. It’s not like Step 1, 2, 3, 4 like you have to do this – you know like Michael Jordan – you have to go to the hoop and whatever comes up you got to move, so it’s like that. But these are the things I developed I used to help me stay in the game longer.

Michael: Yeah, that’s true. I could relate, you know, when we had our bathroom redone and you got the tiler in there in your house at hours and, you know, your family’s home and the kids are running in there, yeah they’re like part of the family while they’re there.

Bill: So that’s another tip. See like on garbage day when your garbage is taken out I bring the garbage can back to the curb. When it’s snowing – you don’t have snow out there thank God – if it’s not too bad I will shovel your walkway.

Michael: You give a little to get.

Bill: I’m a good guy.

Michael: What are some other services that you’ve sold over the years?

Bill: Here’s one that’s really great. For painting contractors who do homes exterior or interior, see over here there’s two times a year when the gutters are clogged with leaves, you know, in the fall and then in the spring. So those are two times that you can count on extra money that you don’t have to even market for I mean it’s there. You sign these people up to an annual contract $300 or $400 dollars a year whatever it is and you can clean the gutters twice a year.

Michael: Did you do a lot of that?

Bill: Yeah, you don’t have to lift a paint brush. My father use to do it and I said “Oh this is nasty work I don’t want to do it” but I realize now what it was it’s a way if you do it systematically, he didn’t do it systematically, he signed them up to a contract. When you do it twice a year for whatever the fee is you agree on you’re always there, you got that money, you’re always in their face, and it keeps you in the family.

Michael: Got it. Okay so it keeps you in front of them and then, of course, that gives you another opportunity for more painting or additional work.

Bill: Exactly.

Michael: Alright, so from gutters what did you go to then next?

Bill: This is good for like young guys, you know, driveways. Driveways are usually asphalt so within three to five years after they’ve been laid they should be treated to keep them from cracking. So you go to Home Depot or wherever you go out there to get that stuff a couple of cans of driveway sealer and you knock it out.

Michael: Did you do a lot of that?

Bill: Yep, $200 bucks, whatever it is. It’s a way of leaving the job. You see like when you leave your job you do the driveway it makes the whole house look better.

Michael: How long does it take you; is this a pretty quick job?

Bill: Two guys can knock it off if you start at 8:00 you can knock off at 12:00, 11:30 it depends on the driveway.

Michael: What are some other things? That’s great. Gutters, driveways, ceilings, what else?

Bill: Well, you know, it’s like I said the windows, the stuff inside your refrigerator, the dryer. I never got into doing floors, I didn’t do floors but people could expand to that level as well. And then also you could have a cleaning division to your company but I never did that. So those are the things I did and they worked well for me to keep me going. But what they would lead to would not only be the painting but it would lead to other decorative services such as decorative painting, wall glazing, marbleizing, these are the things that, you know, once you get in there you can add on as well, you can flip it the other way too. If I want to do a wall glazing for you I’m going to say well, Mr. Senoff, you know, I have to prime these walls out first, you know, you have to be a certain finish on the wall first and that means more money in my pocket. So all these things build on each other.

Michael: Right. It’s kind of like what is does a shoe salesman sale.

Bill: Yeah.

Michael: Most people would say shoes.

Bill: No, he doesn’t.

Michael: He sales everything but the shoes.

Bill: So in painting what we’re looking to do is do exactly that the way I approach it. It’s not about the brush of the paint it’s about how I come to you, it’s who I am with you, how we think together. And I think that’s the thing that so important and necessary when a tradesman goes out in the environment. It got to a point with me where I wrote a little book.

Michael: Tell me about it.

Bill: Well, it’s called the Hidden Secrets of Masterful Painting and Decorating.

Michael: When did you write it?

Bill: 2000.

Michael: Okay.

Bill: And you would think that that was about painting, it’s not about painting, not at all, it was about my philosophy on life and how you can look at my philosophy on life, see who I am and use it in your life as you so choose. And I give it to people and they say “Wow man, you should publish this book this is good.” So that’s what I do and everyone’s different and a lot of guys think that that approach too artsy fartsy or too soft but that’s my approach, that’s how l look at life. And the thing is that every contractor has a set of people that they can relate, there’s always work for you if you’re willing to cultivate that relationship.

Michael: Right. Does your book talk more about life or does it talk about your painting business?

Bill: No. Well, here’s one. Do you know what a Ronin Samurai is?

Michael: A what samurai?

Bill: A ronin.

Michael: No, I know what a samurai is.

Bill: Well, during the [inaudible 31:56] period there was a time when the lord’s couldn’t afford the samurai so they let some of them go. They were called ronin samurai they were looking for a new master. So I have a quote that says “Well, how much do you pay a master painter?” I say well – they’re like ronin samurai. It’s foolish to pay them too much but it’s unwise to pay them too little because, you see, if you pay them too much then you have no control of that, but if you don’t pay them then their sword might come out and might do bad things to you.

Michael: Right, they’ll feel like they’re taken advantage of.

Bill: Right, so it’s the same thing with this. You see people want to know how much are you worth? How much do I pay this guy? Well, it’s foolish to pay them too much but it’s unwise to pay them too little.

Michael: Yeah I had a guy call me yesterday he wanted me to do some audio interviewing services and I’ve talked to the guy before and I told him it was $2000 dollars. He goes “Well, can you do it for $1000?” I thought “You don’t want me to do it for $1000 because if I do it for $1000 I’m going to be resentful and you’re not going to get my best work. Pay me what I’m asking for you’ll get me my best because I feel good about the deal.

Bill: I’m glad you brought that up because that’s at the heart of this situation. Some people want something for nothing it seems, other people are very – can I say – fearful, mistrustful having been taken advantage of. So there’s a fine line where I have to walk. I don’t want to be taken advantage of but I have to do the best I can. I want to prosper and do well so I survive these techniques by necessity.

Michael: Right. You did talk about how Tim could price his jobs a little bit more efficiently. Can you talk a little bit about that if you were talking to Tim? I think he was under pricing himself.

Bill: Yeah, well see I listened to that because he was saying he was getting $1200 dollars a week by himself. I said well $1200 dollars a week what’s it costing him if you look at 25% for materials, 25% for labor that would give him a profit. Well, he was close to $700 dollars so I was a little confused about that. But here’s how I look at it. How much does it cost you to run your business a day?

Michael: So a person has to look at what does it cost to run his business.

Bill: Right. So like its x whatever x is. Let’s say you live in a prestigious part of San Diego it’s a higher rent district.

Michael: Right.

Bill: So if I’m a paying contractor living in your district I’m at a disadvantage when I’m competing with a guy that leaves in a lower rent district, right.

Michael: Right.

Bill: Because his overhead is less, his rent is less, right.

Michael: That’s correct.

Bill: So let’s say, you know, I live in your district my daily net is $500 a day, so I got to get at least $501 dollars to make a profit on your job. If I can’t see myself getting that then why would I take the job? And other guys what they’ll do is they’ll go in and they’ll do square foot, blah, blah, blah. I’m not a square foot guy, I go in and say it’s going to take me this amount of time, I can do a good job, it’s going to take me three days or four days, this is what I need a day that’s the job.

Michael: Just look the ideas we covered in this, this is extremely valuable for any service guy. It’s a totally different way of looking at their business.

Bill: See, I’m a little different because, not because I’m a college graduate that has nothing to do with it, it’s just that my sensitivity is that I think you should relate to people better. In other words, I would not come to your home wearing construction boots in your house I would take my boots off at the front door. Why? Because it doesn’t feel right because I respect your home and I know psychologically that separates me from other people.

Michael: Just by some of the small things you do, whether you bring the garbage can to the curb when you’re coming in or when you knock on the door you go here’s your paper, or you take your boots off or, these small things that are so easy to do and so overlooked can mean a huge difference for business and relationships with their customers.

Bill: In closing, there was one account I had high rent district, up there where Nixon use to live, and I’m competing against this guy who is a [inaudible 35:36] Mr. Flanagan was his name from Ireland, and the lady had used him before, you know, he can do all types of sketching and this and that and the other. I can’t do any sketches but I figured out that the best way to disarm is by doing this. It was a garage and you go from the garage into the kitchen to a lobby, a foyer upstairs and you turn to the right into the bedroom. Everyday I would cover that distance with clean drop cloths and everyday I’d take them down.

Michael: Oh, because you’d be going up and down that path.

Bill: Yeah, even if I didn’t.

Michael: Even if you didn’t.

Bill: Right, to put it in her mind that I’m a clean neat guy.

Michael: Yeah.

Bill: So now end of the job she says “Bill, you’re the cleanest painter I’ve ever had in my house.” Yeah, oh it does.

Michael: That’s great.

Bill: So those are a few of the things and, you know, I just appreciate the time you’ve given me to share with the community.