Michael: Hi, this is Michael Senoff with Michael Senoff's www.hardtofindseminars.com

Here is part two of our HMA Marketing System training with Dave Flannery. Dave is going for the title of world's number one HMA consultant.

In part one, we discussed about how he was able to use his USP at a series of parties to generate over 24 Opportunity Analysis appointments, generated and closed 17 paying clients. Since then, he's deposited closed to $70,000 to $80,000 in U.S. money into his bank account, closing on all 17 of the projects. In this conversation, you're going to hear what it's like working with 17 clients. You're going to hear about some of the challenges he's had. You're going to hear some philosophy on his confidence and how he presents himself with his fees. This is just recording number two that's going to take you through his process and his journey in becoming HMA's number one marketing consultant. There's a lot of value here for you, the HMA consultant, so I hope you enjoy and I hope you find it beneficial. Let's get going.

Why don't you tell me what's going on?

Dave: I've just finished up one of project one, which means I've done 17 focus group sessions.

Michael: So, project one you met with all your clients at their businesses and you did Step 1 for them?

Dave: Step 1 of project one.

Michael: Any challenges in creating the USPs for them?

Dave: I'm only on Step 1 just trying to get focused on where they are, the customer survey to do yet and their competitor analysis to do yet, as well.

Michael: So, the first step was talking to all the businesses?

Dave: The business owner and the staff. Now, the strange thing is in some, the staff, as a whole didn't mind the owner being there. Then in others, they did mind it.

Michael: So, how did you handle that?

Dave: Basically asked the owner if I could speak to the staff alone for five minutes. Half the staff, I would find it intimidating if the owner was there. And if they said they didn't mind it, I let the owner come in. But if they said it was intimidating, I'd go back and I'd spend 10 or 15 minutes with the owner and said listen we need to get a kind of honest reaction from the staff here, so they might be a little bit intimidated by it. Spent a half an hour or 40 minutes with them, come back to you for a half an hour or 40 minutes. And then I got the two separate opinions.

Michael: What did you learn by doing this for 17 businesses?

Dave: Even though it was a free-flow session and that's what you want is ideas and free-flow, free talk, you have to learn to kind of not let it get off the rails. My first one or two, I kind of let it get kind of skewed a little bit into a kind of let's beat the owner up sort of thing. Do you know what I mean? Got off a little bit off tangent and you have to learn to see that and pull it back.

Michael: Were you able to collect all your checks?

Dave: All the time.

Michael: So, when you got there, he had your check for you or did you get it at the beginning or the end?

Dave: I never asked for it.

Michael: You never asked for it?

Dave: No, I never asked for it. I went in with the assumption that I would get it; no problem.

Michael: Did they ask you how you wanted it made out before you left?

Dave: They handed me the check before I started. That was fantastic; of course, I had no problem waiting for it until the end. I personally wouldn't push that aspect of it unless the case being it was plainly obvious that there was a problem. Now, if there was a problem, like if he'd forgotten or something, I wouldn't have blown a gasket or screamed bloody murder. Obviously, people forget or mistakes are made or whatever it might be, so you have to kind of play that as you get there.

Michael: So, no one had to reschedule? Everyone was onboard.

Dave: Yes.

Michael: That's great.

Dave: I think I've been very lucky so far. I mean I'm waiting _____out of my head, its gone so well so far. Now, the one thing I would say is don't try to analyze as you're taking notes. I tried to do that for the first two or three and what happened was it kind of gets disjointed because you're looking at your notes and you're trying to analyze so you're missing something that's in the meeting. So, what I would do is take longhand notes and try and get it into Mind Map, take a central point and just state what would be the question, why should people do business with us, why have they done it in the past, and why should they do it in the future. Make that as a center thing and have the spokes coming out and ask each of those spokes or an idea you think is pertinent, you write it downs straight away. And you end up with something that looks a wheel. I haven't explained that very well, now, but if somebody wants to look it up on the Internet, they want to go to www.amazon.com <http://www.amazon.com> and just put in Mind Map, they'll get some very good books. And it's a way for me to keep track of what was going on in while I'm listening at the meeting rather than trying to analyze what has been said. That comes later. The analysis of the thing won't come until the write up, which is down the line. That's not until Step 4. So, you've got the competitive analysis and you've got the customer survey. So, I feel if I start analyzing now, I'll get flawed information. I'll get skewed. I think if you try and analyze too early, you'll get a flawed sense of what's going on. And if you analyze during your interviews, especially if it's going so fast, the people kind of…not screaming and shouting…but the ones that get their ideas out, you're going to miss something. So, I think, for myself anyway, the Mind Map is great way of writing down in longhand small points, it doesn't have to be a big essay, and you end up with one page then the pertinent points of the interview, of the focus group. And the funny thing, when somebody sees somebody recording, a lot of people don't like it. They just feel that they have to be wary of what they're saying. I don't want people to be wary of what they're saying like you've got the owner also in the meeting because that's exactly what they're not going to do. So, if you record them…because they're scared the owner's going to hear what's been said or it's going to be played back to the owner, whatever it might be, whatever their reservations might be, they're not going to be as forthcoming because it gives them a sense of deniability when they're not being recorded. They can always say, no I didn't say that.

Michael: How helpful was it interviewing the employees with the owner not there? Was the real stuff coming out?

Dave: My first two did go off in a bit of a tangent, but I expected that. I really didn't pull it back. I didn't pull it back until the third focus group.

Michael: How do you position yourself? When you go in there and you're meeting with the employees, what do you say to them why you're here and who you are?

Dave: Mediator and facilitator, that's it. I'm just kind of…listen to their ideas and put their ideas forward in such a way that can strengthen their business.

Michael: Were there some brilliant ideas?

Dave: The customers and the staff, that's where it's all going to come from. They're the people that are on the front lines. It took 10 or 15 minutes for everybody to loosen up for them to see that they're not on some side or I haven't got an issue or an agenda. That's a very important point you have to get out that you're just a facilitator and moderator there. They're the ones that have all the ideas and you're the one who is trying to find out these ideas; that you don't have all the answers. I think it's going to be fatal for me to go in there and say listen I'm a consultant and I'm here to say your company. I have all the ideas, but I'm just listening to you because it is part of the process.

Michael: You let them know that the ideas are going to come from them.

Dave: Exactly. And also, I think on the write up stage, it's very important to go back and show these people that you have actually used their ideas. Listen to them and for the ones that you haven't used, to acknowledge the fact that they did give you good ideas, but it just didn't fit the time or the place at the moment.

Michael: Do you make notes of all the employees and their names?

Dave: I've got a register so that I can call on them by name rather than kind of pointing and saying yes you. That's all done for me before I go in.

Michael: Has it been more work than you anticipated?

Dave: I don't know. I'd probably drop it down to about 12 if I had the option again.

Michael: You deposited a big check the other day?

Dave: 60,000 Euro.

Michael: When he sells the big four, does he include Internet marketing as Step #8 as in the 2006 training DVDs or does he make word of mouth marketing number eight as in the Power Point presentations?

Dave: 2006 training, Internet marketing. Word of mouth marketing I take as referrals. I'll be teaching that as an ongoing process between the client and the company. The company and their customers, as regards, it's an ongoing process as when you start with a customer you ask for referral. You always ask for the referral. You educate the client…you teach your clients to educate their customers to value what you've given them and ask them do they know anybody else who would appreciate the value that you can give. Rather than making it a step, I kind of look at it as making it a process and then I kind of refer back to Abraham's 93 referral systems. If anybody can get a hold of that, it really is excellent. I would go with 2006 training DVDs.

Michael: Number two, what range are your client's annual sales in U.S. dollars…$500,000 to $5 million? What's the average annual sales and does everyone pay the same fee for each project?

Dave: The consultants in the U.S. are going to have a huge advantage over the likes of myself. People who direct mail or direct marketing lists or companies or brokers are not as not sophisticated in the States, but Irish broker list companies are not very sophisticated. I had this conversation with yourself, Michael, a couple of times over email. Broker's lists do not have access to sales figures, so basically what I did was assumed if company had been 15 and 250 employees that it would be making between $500,000 and $1 million. That's the assumption I made.

Michael: You could get number of employees and the data?

Dave: Correct, but I couldn't get sales and still can't and because of theft protection here won't ever be able.

Michael: So, that data is just not allowed.

Dave: Even if it's offered by the company to the list broker, the list broker cannot tender it for public knowledge. So, I cost my clients by employee number and just made the assumption that if they were that big to be able to pay between 15 and 250 employees, that will make a certain amount of sales per year and just went with that.

Michael: Were they forthcoming with their sales figures in the Opportunity Analysis?

Dave: They were very guarded.

Michael: Did you ask?

Dave: No. And I will say one thing, during the Opportunity Analysis I _____ them as in I said listen will you be able to handle a 20% or 30% or 40% jump in sales or business and my fee will be between 3,500 and 5,000 per project. Can you afford that? If they said yes, they were in. If they said no, I said well good luck. I won't negotiate on fee, ever, it's between 3,500 and 5,000. If you start negotiating on fee you're saying that you don't believe in the value that you can offer that client. I mean we're always saying the USP price is not a USP, but you're going in and the minute that the person kind of…you feel resistance against the project you're lowering your price. What I do is I show what I can do for that client for that fee. Let me put it this way. One thing I would say to somebody if they give me a little bit of resistance is how much do you pay a secretary per year. And the normal average rate for a secretary over here would be about 22,000 a year. And then I would say, so for four steps of what I'm doing for you, it will cost you 15,000, let's say. I can increase your business by at least 20%. What is your secretary doing for your business and you're paying her 8,000 more than me. I would never negotiate on fee. I mean they want you or they don't want you. And if they don't, that's fine. Just go and find somebody else who will pay your fee. You will find them. On the last teleconference call I was on, it was you saying that a lot of HMA consultants were complaining of low fees, but that's their own fault because they're not creating the market for themselves on that basis. I mean if you've got nothing else to offer except low price, they're going to perceive you as having low value.

Michael: When demand goes up, price goes up. You're chock full of clients right now. What if a client said David I really want your consulting work now, would you consider a higher fee on the waiting list?

Dave: It would depend. I mean I've got four on the waiting list already for a start in mid March and they've paid me 3,500.

Michael: So, your price should be going up now on the waiting list because you're in demand.

Dave: What I want to do is I want to make sure that I've got a good market penetration before I start doing anything with the price. I mean I'm okay with the price at the moment. I mean when I do get some market penetration, get some face value and face time in the market, then definitely. What'll probably happen is I'll start bringing my client load down and my price up and then rather than working for 17, I'll work for 8 at the same price overall.

Michael: Did you have any resistance to $5,000 per step, and it's U.S. $5,000. It seems incredible that a bowling alley would pay $20,000 to increase its business. Just how big is this bowling alley. How did you come up with 3,500 Euro? Did everyone pay up front or did some pay half now with the balance to be paid at project completion?

Dave: The reason I find it interesting is because the asker of the question is focusing on what the client had to pay me, but the focus should be on what value is the client getting. I mean he's paying $20,000, but I mean a 20% jump in his business might bring him an extra $40,000. It's not what you got the client; it's the value that you can bring that client based on whatever I bring him. I mean the HMA consultants have to look at it from their point of view. You have to look at it from the client's point of view. I mean that $20,000, I could bring him an extra 40 and if it's good, an extra $60,000. And it doesn't matter how big the bowling alley is because of the value you're bringing for that $20,000.

Michael: When he started the bowling alley, he may have put down $150,000-$200,000 just for the bowling alley with no guarantee in return.

Dave: No guarantee at all. I feel there's a fear among the consultant to actually ask for fees that they want because they're scared of somebody saying no. Like I think the fear of rejection is a huge issue with consultants out there at the moment because you're going to get people who do say no to you. And, of course, the thing about it is don't take if personally. But you have to have a standard value for yourself. You can't let people dictate your sense of your own value. That's my value. This is what I can bring for it. If you're interested, you're interested and this is why I think you should be. And if you're not, well fair enough. Maybe we can do business in the future. I mean that question is fantastic because it does bring that point out. The asker of the question is completely focused on what the client is giving me or would be giving him, let's say, if he was in my position rather than what he can give to the client for that amount of money. I mean it could be a huge case of me or even the asker of the question, if it was him, under pricing himself for the amount of value that he gave to the client.

Michael: How did you come up with the 3,500 Euros?

Dave: I based it on…the price is given by the coaching franchises in my area.

Michael: Did everyone pay upfront or did some pay half now with the balance to be paid at project completion?

Dave: Upfront.

Michael: How large is the population of your client base? I mean with a 50 minute driving radius he mentioned. I ask this because my city has a population of about 28,000 people in a rural county in southern Oregon so I can't market to a major city. Will this matter?

Dave: Maybe I said 50 minutes; it's actually 50 miles. My region houses about a half million people.

Michael: Are you right in the city?

Dave: Yes, I live in the main town. But the town that I actually live in only has 15,000 and that's where all my clients are at the moment. So, he is actually nearly double the people in his town. What I would say to that person is just be very focused on what you need. Belay the focus on your market, belay the focus on the type of finance you want, and then find where those clients are as in Chamber of Commerce for a town that big. I'm sure there's some sort of business associations, trade associations; things like that. Focus on those so you try and get a foot in with that. You just basically follow the system, but be very focused on what you look for. I mean a four-hour drive from Portland, yes that's fine, but I would leave Portland out. I would target Portland after you've got a foot in wherever he lives in the rural county. And then what I would do, make the four hour drive worth your while. What I would do is I would try and bunch them together. Take a four-hour drive, which would be, let's say, five in the morning until ten. Do three or four hour long Opportunity Analysis. That would bring you to one or two and then a four-hour drive; he would be back at six. He has a 12-hour day, but you have to try and get a foothold in these places. I mean the must be a Chamber of Commerce, trade associations, definitely a paper. There might be a local radio station for that area and get in there. The thing about it is if he thinks it's so small, he should become the obvious expert to everybody in whatever area he wants to become the expert in.

Michael: Yes, the big fish in the small pond.

Dave: This is it. I mean that's the way I am at the moment. I mean get out and work the system.

Michael: He needs to elaborate on how he overcame any resistance between his short USP…20% increase in sales in 20 days…and the four-step program, which will last 80 days. I love the USP, but I think it will come back to haunt him by setting too high an expectation. I suppose if I found a client with a great USP that was fully integrated, number one and number two, then I could start with Step #3 and increase sales in 20 days. This did not happen.

Dave: First of all you get over any resistance by finding out their needs, their hopes and aspirations for their business. What you do is you work how you can make that happen into the conversation. You don't come up against any resistance if you can do that. Now, that's only if you can help them, but I mean resistance is only lack of education. If you get resistance that means you haven't done your job properly to the point that they know what they can do for you for the fee you're charging. Now, if you can't help them, you have to be honest and tell them listen I'm sorry, I can't help them. I mean if I came up against somebody who has a fantastic USP, had it fantastically integrated, and had all the steps of the system perfectly down, I'd have to put my hands up and say listen I'm sorry, you're doing everything perfectly. I can't help you. Hopefully that will never happen because then I'll be out of business. But what I'm saying is when you find a situation where you can help somebody, it's up to you, it's your job during the Opportunity Analysis to educate the person to the point that they have no question. Resistance is only questions. Education overcomes resistance.

Michael: How would you answer 20% increase in sales in 20 day. Do you think that's going to come back and bite you and if not, why?

Dave: I don't think it is and I'll tell you why. Because they don't know what your system is as regards, they don't know what you're doing. I mean it hasn't come up yet. I'll just say nobody's polled me on it. Nobody's been specific about it. None of them have come out and said I want this result in 20 days.

Michael: Well, I'll give you an example. There's a gentleman on the call yesterday and he really liked your USP…20% increase in sales in 20 days. And I had said we had worked on that and he goes maybe I should change it 20% increase in two months. And I go, use it, but use 20% increase in sales in 20 days because it acts as a headline and once you qualify yourself, they're not going to be thinking about that.

Dave: Remember as well, 20% in 20 days is a guarantee based on your client's action. If you make a recommendation, he must act on it within that 20 days. Now, if somebody said to me in the Opportunity Analysis, I want this 20% in 20 days, fine, where are the low hanging fruit, where could I make the biggest impact in 20 days. What I would do then, I would make a separate step, as in a first step, before defining the USP, what I would do is I would go into their sales; are the salespeople under performing, how do they use their database. Use that as Step 1, get the growth from that in 20 days, present that as your USP…your 20% growth in 20 days…offer it as a freebie, and then go on to defining the USP. You've already proven yourself and as far as they're concerned, this is still Step 1. This is what Richard was talking about. If anybody can access the first teleconference with Richard and really listen to what he was saying, I think you asked him that very question and he came back and he said they don't know what the steps of the system are. Go into where the low hanging fruit is. Go into the database. Are they using their database? Do they have salespeople that aren't performing? Things that you know will get instant results when you start changing them. And then it's based on the client's action.

Michael: How have you set those expectations with your client that he's going to need to execute with you, with his employees, and such?

Dave: I put it forward as a teaching experience. What I'm doing is I will execute, administer…I will master mind, administer, and execute the system, but I will also teach them so that it's not a one of thing that they can reproduce what I have done while I'm not there, when our contract ends or our agreement ends. So, within that education, they have to execute to learn and that's going to take time. You still see results within the 90 days based on your action of my recommendations.

Michael: What information did you put on your business cards and did you market yourself as a lone-ranger, Dave Flannery Consultants, or as a business with himself as the president?


Dave: Because of business law over here in Ireland, you have to register. You can't start a business. You have to register as a business. My business card is about one and a half inches by two and a half inches.

Michael: Regular business card size?

Dave: Regular business card size. The writing is all in blue because I've read some research where blue writing on white background is regarded as the most business like. So, the first line is David Flannery Consulting and the second line then is grow your business 20% in 20 days guaranteed. Then across the middle you've got David Flannery, MBA and managing consultant because that is what you're doing. You're managing your own business and you're a consultant. I mean president and CEO; these things don't really mean much over here. I thought managing consultant was more a specialist as regards to what I'm doing. Then underneath that you've got Ireland's #1 HMA business growth expert. Then underneath that, again, you've got, again, my USP, grow your business 20% in 20 days guaranteed and then it's just contact information more or less under that. I've got my address, my email, phone numbers, and international inquiry number. I mean it's very basic. I mean it's nothing anybody couldn't do.

Michael: Do you have plans to have a website? If you already have one, what's the domain name?

Dave: I am. I'm actually bartering with a couple of designers at the moment and it'll probably be a month before it's up, but yes there's one on the way.

Michael: So, you're going to barter your consulting services?

Dave: Yes.

Michael: Now, why would you do that?

Dave: Because it saves me money and when I do a good job for them, I can JV with them for their database.

Michael: Money saved is money earned, right.

Dave: There you go.

Michael: Good job. Number eight, when he completed the Opportunity Analysis, did he close Step 1 without preparing a proposal? Does he do business without a contract?

Dave: Yes, I did all the Opportunity Analysis based on the eight projects and then recommended the core four with a view to approach the big four at a later stage. So, I always recommend the core four based on, obviously, if the company doesn't have a USP, it's not integrated, they don't have any of the steps in place. But I will always do the Opportunity Analysis based on the eight project plan, recommend the core four, but with the view to approaching the big four at a later stage when the core four have shown results. Yes, I closed the core four without a proposal because, again, a proposal to me is questions and questions to me is lack of education. So, if somebody comes to you and says give me a proposal, what that says to me is well if he's asking for a proposal it means I haven't explain what this all about. Now, it's a different thing if they ask for an agreement, which is the other part of the question. I have one drawn up myself. I just have to discuss it over email, Michael. I have one drawn up, but I haven't used it yet. It's always been on a handshake. I have one, like I said.

Michael: I don't know if you listened to the Sam Bowman interview, the guy in Tennessee.

Dave: That was a fantastic interview.

Michael: Yes. He does the same thing. All his are handshakes.

Dave: Plus the fact my agreement would be about…it's no longer than one page long and it's all in English, not lawyer-ease because contracts scare people. It's simple. It's an important point to me; they scare me, especially after an Opportunity Analysis. Whatever good will you get from educating somebody, if you slap that four-page, five-page contract in front of them, it's going to go out the window. I mean there's always time between the Opportunity Analysis and the first step of project one, the focus group, to reset in your head what's gone on in the Opportunity Analysis, what kind of signals did you get off of somebody. And if you feel a little that maybe this guy is a little bit dodgy or whatever else, yes I got some mixed signals, by all means bring an agreement along on the first step and say read that, it's a page long, what do you think. Have somebody look over it; no problem. You've always got time between the Opportunity Analysis and the first step of project one. Go back over in your head, see what signals you got, and if it doesn't feel good, by all means use the agreement. I haven't used one yet. I haven't used a proposal. I think a proposal is just a sign that you haven't done your job. There's a proposal outline in the training materials. By all means use it. I just haven't found the need yet.

Michael: I know two people getting married, the marriage is…

Dave: Prenuptial.

Michael: Yes, with the prenuptials, most of them end in divorce because when you say you want to sign this, you're already admitting that there's going to be problems.

Dave: Yes. The biggest thing that I found during this whole adventure is education is the key. I mean at the end of the day, all these people want is results. They don't care how you get them, really. They don't care if your method is driving around in your car with a megaphone and shouting out at the top of your voice for 12 hours around the streets. If that works for them, it works for them. They just want results. They don't really care how you're going to get that, but during the Opportunity Analysis, tell them anyway. Half the time they won't be listening to you. They're just worried about results.

Michael: One more question that just came in along these lines. During David's first audio segment, he mentioned his core four projects. I've asked that he describes them, as I'd like to know if the same four projects could be applied effectively to his diverse customers that include retail, restaurants, and a bowling alley? And he wants to know are these core four applicable for the diverse customers that you have. He's saying will these core four fit for all these different types of business.

Dave: The core four are defining the USP or EVP. The USP is unique selling position. EVP is extra value proposition. That's project one. Project two then is once you find and define your USP you integrate it into the sales structure that's already there. Project three then is database marketing. You go into the person's database as in customer list, as in past customers, present customers and prospective customers. Then four is strategic alliances, joint ventures, seeing what outside the company you can look for alliances and alliance partners. The core four, they can be applied to every single business known to man. I mean everybody needs a USP. Everybody needs an EVP. That EVP is the reason that people do business with that company. That reason needs to be told every single contact with a client, whether it be on a business card, whether it be the way a receptionist picks up the phone, the greeting, the way it's on an answering machine service. It has to be integrated into everything. The way the salespeople make a sales pitch; that reason why the company thinks that people should do business with them.

Database marketing, it costs so much to get one customer, through marketing, through direct mail, through everything; it costs so much to get one customer, why let them go after just one sale. Go into your database, go into your list, you look at past customers, you look at present customers, you look at people who may be your customers in the future. Reactivate your past customers with a reactivation letter, a reactivation promotion; whatever it might be. And your present customers you work at retaining them, you work a backend. And on futures then, education; you follow up on every sale or every prospective sale. You learn how to increase your closing ratio. Every single business can use that. There's not a business out there that can't. Would you agree with that?

Michael: I would.

Dave: Strategic alliances then, I mean every business and company in the world, global and international, are using strategic alliances. The one that everybody would know would be Coca-Cola and McDonald's. I mean McDonald's only sells Coke, or McDonald's and Disney where Happy Meal toys are all Disney toys. But then bring it down to the basic. A retail shop selling lawn mowers. That may not click at the time, but what you see then is they're using each other's database. Does that make sense?

Michael: Yes it does.

Dave: I mean the core four and the big four…I mean you can go to the big four, as well. I mean media; everybody uses media. You've got community marketing and PR. The big companies, community marketing is huge at the moment. Everybody wants sponsorship. Everybody wants sponsorship deals or giving to humanitarian aids, things like that, banks. Direct marketing is another method to get into your market place, get direct focus on your target market. And then Internet marketing, I mean everybody using Internet marketing. There's nothing more I can say about that. I mean there's not one project there that can't be used by every single type of business. I mean I'm just wondering from the question, does the questioner have a type of business in mind that he thought or company…what business that he might be thinking of that may not be able to?

Michael: I think his question was are all businesses essentially the same or are they different and I think you answered it.

Dave: Getting a customer and making a sale, simple as that.

Michael: This has been great. It's about seven o'clock there and I'm sure you've got a pretty busy day tomorrow. What's the day of Dave Flannery going to be like with 17 clients? What are you going to be doing tomorrow?

Dave: The start of Step 2, customer surveys, so I'm going to be on the phone a lot and hopefully going to make about 120 calls tomorrow.

Michael: All right Dave. This has been awesome. Let's just keep doing this. We'll do another call after you've done all the USPs for everyone. How about that?

Dave: Just shoot me an email about it the day before.

Michael: Got it. All right, have a great one. Thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Dave: No problem at all.

Michael: Bye-bye.

Dave: Bye.
 

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