Do you consider yourself lucky at playing cards?  Well, whether you do or not, I know that you’ll get a kick out of this interview I did with a gentleman named Drew.  Drew is a very experienced player of online Texas Holdem Poker games.  Texas Holdem Poker is extremely popular all over the world and there are many gambling web sites that host games where you can win (or lose) real money.  All you need to play is a computer with Internet access and a valid credit card.

Drew explains that he now wins more than 90% of the Holdem Poker games that he plays using a system that he has devised.  He has packaged his winning system into an Information Product.  Drew got in touch with me because, even though Holdem Poker is immensely popular, his Information Product is not selling as well as he had anticipated.  As such, this interview contains valuable information for anyone about how to better market Information Products.

Listen as I prompt Drew to tell me how online Holdem Poker games work, his favorite games, how much a person can win, and about his Information Product that contains Drew’s secrets for winning at online Holdem Poker.

Topics that we discuss to improve Drew’s sales include:

• Drew is undervaluing his product – the product’s price should be higher. Much Higher
• Perhaps a money-back guarantee should be offered to buyers.
• Put more content into the web site, such as good audio to promote the product.
• Hire a good copywriter to create a dynamite sales letter or have a professionally created audio infomercial.
• Set up joint ventures with other businesses to promote his product.
• Include audio CDs as well as the book as the product.
• …and many more valuable tips for success

This is such a great consultation because so many marketing options are discussed.  You won’t want to miss a minute of it. 

Michael: You have a rabid and hungry market, a huge market. That’s what attracted me to the whole Black Jack thing. It’s just a matter of I haven’t gotten around to it and I’ve got other priorities right now. But the main thing I saw after reading that letter…and I saw this price of $14 for this system that could make you potentially thousands, I just said something is wrong here; $14. It is so cheap, it just didn’t jive. This is a product that if it can deliver on your promises and really teach someone how to make money online playing Texas Hold’em night after night…even if they work at…it can make them thousands of dollars. This should be a product that sells for $1,000. And I think that that is why you’re not selling anything because people don’t believe it.

[Music]

Michael: Hi, this is Michael Senoff with www.hardtofindseminars.com . Here’s a one hour consult with a gentleman who ordered my audio marketing secrets package. He called and took advantage of his 30-minute consult with me because he ended up paying for the package. He sent me his website and it’s our discussion about his product, which is an information product which he had already developed on a system on how to beat other players on online playing Texas Hold’em poker. If you’ve been watching any TV in the last few years, you’ll understand how popular this game has become. He called me looking for ways to increase the value of his product. It’s an hour-long consult. We go over a lot of ways to jump the value of his product and to increase the sales of his product. I think if you’re considering creating or selling or improving the sales of your own information product, you’re going to find this one-hour consult very helpful. Let’s get going.


Michael: Nice to meet you. Thanks for getting that info product from me. Have you gone through most of it?

Drew: I have actually and actually I was listening to some of it again and it’s great stuff. Let me thank you, as well.

Michael: How did you end up finding it?

Drew: I-Tunes.

Michael: That is awesome. So, you have an iPod?

Drew: I don’t. My daughter does. She was downloading some songs or whatever. It automatically does iTunes on my laptop and all that. I was just messing around. I don’t even know what I put in. I think I put in sales training or something to that affect. And then you had an interview with _____ I believe. So, I started looking at your stuff. I’m like wow this is great stuff.

Michael: Did you click to the site from the iTunes?

Drew: I did.

Michael: That’s perfect. Just since January, I’ve put up about 180 pod casts. I’ve got all my recordings that are on my site now as pod casts and iTunes, they’re like 85% of the traffic. So, it’s just another way to generate traffic through audio because my stuff is mainly audio, even though I have transcripts, too.

Drew: Right. Absolutely.

Michael: Now is the time…I mean I looked at all your recordings on your Texas Hold’em stuff. But that’s just one way of getting traffic. I had to think of other ways to get traffic using audio. With the proliferation of iTunes and all the pod cast sites, it’s been a wonderful way to get traffic to my site and you’re a perfect example.

Drew: Yes, absolutely.

Michael: How old are you?

Drew: I am 36.

Michael: You’re 36 and you’ve got a daughter. How many kids to you have, one?

Drew: I’ve got two. I’ve got, believe it or not, a 15-year-old daughter who is an adopted stepdaughter and an 8-year-old boy. I never grew up with sisters or anything. If you have any advice on a 15-year-old girl, I’d love to hear it.

Michael: I’m a triplet actually. I’ve got a triplet sister and triplet brother. I’m 41. I’ve got an older sister, two years older, but I really don’t have any advice. I’ve got two boys.

Drew: Very good.

Michael: I’m happy for that.

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: I don’t mind girls, but boys are easier.

Drew: That’s right.

Michael: So, you clicked over and you were probably just cruising around the site. You probably got on my list actually.

Drew: Yes.

Michael: And then you got an email about how to turn a $28 information product into a $3,900 product.

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: Perfect. It’s great how it works. So, my iTunes pod casts led you to being a customer. That’s wonderful.

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: That’s what marketing is all about.

Drew: That’s right.

Michael: In your case, with your Texas Hold’em, it’s really ironic because I almost got into a joint venture with a guy who had a Black Jack system. I’ve got about an hour and a half audio recording, which I’ve never posted to the site. We had agreements lined up where we were going to partner and market his Black Jack system. When I saw you’re Texas Hold’em stuff, I mean that was wonderful. The problem was he didn’t have it together. He just had an outline of his book. He had proof that he had a winning system. It was basically counting cards. He was a card counter. He made probably a couple hundred thousand dollars counting cards until he got banned from Vegas and banned from all the major casinos all around the world. He had proof of checks and everything. He’s teaching Black Jack seminars. There’s a lot of ideas for what you have. The reason I really liked is because…just like you say a little bit on your site…Texas Hold’em…now, I’m not a poker player, but the proliferation…the publicity of poker on TV is just absolutely amazing.

Drew: It’s insane. I mean really to be honest with you, that’s what got me into it a few years ago.

Michael: Have you only been learning and playing for a few years?

Drew: I have, believe it or not. But I’m the type of guy that once I sink my teeth into something…

Michael: You’re a maniac.

Drew: Yes, exactly. And so, now certainly I don’t play nearly as much as I did because I was just like there’s got to be a way because when I first started, of course, like most people, I got hooked. I got destroyed.

Michael: Were you only playing online?

Drew: I played primarily…I mean I would plan in neighborhood games and stuff and stuff like that. And I did better in those games. My personality is I tend to be impatient. I was just thinking to myself, okay, there’s got to be a way that a person like me…I consider myself intelligent and all that stuff and I know how to play cards pretty well, but there’s got to be a way that I can make money at this online. Really in a nutshell, that’s what the systems are in my book.

Michael: This system is really about playing online, not necessarily face-to-face. These are online games from your computer sitting at home making money.

Drew: Exactly.

Michael: Give me in a nutshell how you figured all this out.

Drew: The problem I was having was a lot of people that I talked to they’d get online, they join a poker room, and then the first thing they do is get into 1,500 seat tournament because this pays out $10,000.

Michael: So, there are all these online tournaments going on?

Drew: Right. There are a ton of them.

Michael: Do you have to pay to be included in one?

Drew: Yes.

Michael: How much does it cost to join one?

Drew: Anywhere from $1 to $100.

Michael: How did you overcome the skepticism of online…like these people can’t be honest…if you win, how do I know they’re going to pay off? How did you overcome and get to the point where you trusted that if you really won that it wasn’t rigged and you weren’t going to be cheated?

Drew: Well, I did talk to a few people. I’m probably the minority when it comes to that…probably over trusting.

Michael: You just had faith.

Drew: I never had a problem. But what I did do is I started off with not a lot of money invested or deposited, if you will, playing a couple different tables and things like that. And when I won, it’s immediate. They immediately deposit the money.

Michael: You pay with your credit card to be in a game?

Drew: Correct.

Michael: Are you buying chips?

Drew: Basically you’re buying into the tournament.

Michael: You’re buying a slot into the tournament. What do you get? You’re dealing in chips, right?

Drew: Right.

Michael: How many chips does each player start with?

Drew: It ranges, but typically like 1,500.

Michael: Fifteen hundred. So, you’ve got them sitting in front of you at your table?

Drew: Yes.

Michael: In the game, can you keep buying more and more if you lose it all?

Drew: Every tournament is different, but when you’re talking about more popular ones or like on a Friday or Saturday night, like a $40,000 guarantee where they guarantee that they pay out $40,000 in money.

Michael: To the winners of the tournament?

Drew: Yes.

Michael: Is there more than one winner in a tournament?

Drew: Yes. They’ll pay out, depending on the number of people, anywhere from one person to 120.

Michael: So, on the screen you’d have a little thing that tells you how much money you have?

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: So, when you win a hand, those credits, you see them right on your screen?

Drew: Exactly.

Michael: Let’s just fast forward. The game is over and you’ve won $1,000 and then you want to go offline. How do you take that money out of the computer?

Drew: You just go into their cashier section, hit withdraw.

Michael: And then they’ll credit it to your credit card?

Drew: Yes or however you deposited the money. They have the online net tellers and things like that. So, is you used that account to deposit money in, they’ll withdraw it back into that account.

Michael: Or if it was like Pay Pal, they’ll just credit it back.

Drew: Exactly.

Michael: With Vegas, every time you win more than a certain amount, you’ve got to fill out tax forms. Is it the same thing on line or different?

Drew: That’s a great question. I would imagine it would be on a personal level. A lot of these are offshore.

Michael: You’ve never seen it?

Drew: No.

Michael: They’re probably all offshore. Does it say where they are?

Drew: Some are Costa Rica.

Michael: It’s totally legal to do online gaming?

Drew: I don’t know that it’s not.

Michael: I was just curious.

Drew: Nobody has ever said anything in publications or anything that online gaming is illegal.

Michael: I guess if you’re a minor and doing it.

Drew: Without a doubt.

Michael: So, you had to figure out a simple way to beat the system online. What did you come up with? What was the ultimate revelation?

Drew: Mine was because I tend to be an impatient player, which could be death to a poker play, so what I found was two different ways. One is what’s called a heads-up sit and go tournament…is what they call it, but what it is, is if you and I were both logged in at the same time and we chose to play in a $10 where we invest basically $11 because $1 goes to the online gaming room, you and I play heads-up against each other and it’s winner take all.

Michael: Just two people?

Drew: Just two people.

Michael: Can three people play heads-up?

Drew: Not in heads-up.

Michael: So, is this the game of your choice?

Drew: This is one of two games.

Michael: So, heads-up, one on one competition because it’s quicker.

Drew: Exactly.

Michael: Rather than waiting for all these players to show their hands, it just goes by quicker and you can get the money quicker if you can beat the guy. So, that increases your odds right there. So, what happened when you started doing that?

Drew: I experienced tremendous success because while I knew I had the mindset. When you get into a big tournament, you have to have a mindset that you could be there for six hours. And then if I have the mindset that I can be here from 15 to really 30 minutes…

Michael: Per game. It’s not going to last more than 30 minutes?

Drew: No. So, I knew at that point I can have the mindset to play aggressive, but also play within myself and only playing the best hand to where…because typically what happened to me is I was playing in a bigger tournament and franking I would be doing great at the beginning and then I would feel myself getting bored and start playing hands that I never would play and never should play. In heads-up, I’m able to maintain that focus.

Michael: And concentration.

Drew: And concentration. But then on the flip side of this, a lot of bad people play these type of games.

Michael: Which is good for you.

Drew: Exactly.

Michael: Because they’re scared of playing with all the big guys.

Drew: Exactly.

Michael: So, the big guys are going with the big games because there maybe more money if though it takes longer?

Drew: Right, absolutely.

Michael: They may think that they’re better thinkers and better players and they can out smart everyone. The pot is bigger in the larger games, right?

Drew: Right, absolutely.

Michael: So, sometimes you can get involved with a less skilled player, your game time is quicker, but would you say that the pot is a lot less than the larger games?

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: What’s the average bet on these heads-up games?

Drew: They range. I mean you can play in a $5 heads-up game to $100 and probably even more. I typically play right now in the $50 heads-up games. So, if you and I are playing heads-up and I win, then I profit $50.

Michael: Can you profit more in a game than $50?

Drew: Only if you play the higher games.

Michael: The amount of a game is what you’re going to win if you win against one person.

Drew: Right.

Michael: That’s a lot better than 50/50 odds if you think you’re a good player. You said at any time there are millions of people playing Texas Hold’em on the Internet at any one time at any given time.

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: That many?

Drew: Absolutely. I can find a game within 30 seconds.

Michael: How long would it take you to be starting with a $50 heads-up game playing Texas Hold’em with someone if I said go?

Drew: Right now, being in the middle of the afternoon, it may take me a few minutes, maybe 10, 15, 20 minutes to find somebody else online. But in the evening, when everybody is home from work, even though it’s, of course, a global poker room, the majority it seems like are from the U.S.

Michael: So, it really is global. Everyone knows what numbers are.

Drew: Absolutely. They have sites where they show people from all parts of the globe that play.

Michael: How did Texas Hold’em originate and why is it so popular? Is this the game we’re seeing on TV?

Drew: That’s why it’s so popular.

Michael: Because of the publicity?

Drew: Because of the publicity and it’s an easy game to learn.

Michael: It is easy.

Drew: A simple game to learn, almost impossible to master. I mean it takes a lot of experience over time. If you watch poker on TV, you see some of the same guys up there all the time. But a lot of those are made for TV, as well. They’re invited to these smaller tournaments.

Michael: You could find a game within minutes any time during the day as long as you have a credit card and a computer. With your system and what you teach by doing heads-up, one on one play, literally within an hours time, you have a chance of making $50 for every 30 minutes you play $100, $500.

Drew: Right. I play $50 tables now. Before, I was playing $10 to $30 tables.

Michael: What’s the difference in the skill of player between $10 and $30 and $50?

Drew: There’s a jump in the skill level from $30 to $50, but not that much. But what I recommend…a lot of the people that have purchased my book…they are more or less skilled at the very beginner level, so they need to ramp up. And so, the $10 to $30 level works out great for them.

Michael: Tell me about some of your successes and some of your failures as you went through this learning curve and you started playing. How much were you able to make? How much did you lose? What’s the reality of it here?

Drew: When I first started, whether I’m fortunate or just very lucky or whatever, I haven’t lost any money so to speak. I’ve lost games, of course, but if I play for a couple three hours a day, I always end up making money. Now, when it’s all said and done and I’ve only made $20 in four hours…that happens. Then there’s also days when I made $800 in just a few hours. It’s interesting, but if you do it consistently, over time you can make really good money.

Michael: One thing that you mentioned in the email is that money is a problem for you. You said it’s an understatement. So, the thing is with a product like this, people are buying it as an investment. I’ll just tell you, the main thing I saw after reading the website and after just looking…I didn’t look at every single thing. I downloaded the recordings. I think you’ve got a great voice. You can produce a great information product. You have a rabid and hungry market, a huge market. That’s what attracted me to the whole Black Jack thing. It’s just a matter of I haven’t gotten around to it and I’ve got other priorities right now. But the main thing I saw after reading that letter…and I saw this price of $14 for this system that could make you potentially thousands, I just said something is wrong here; $14. It is so cheap, it just didn’t jive.

Drew: De-valued.

Michael: This is a product that if it can deliver on your promises and really teach someone how to make money online playing Texas Hold’em night after night…even if they work at…it can make them thousands of dollars. This should be a product that sells for $1,000. And I think that that is why you’re not selling anything because people don’t believe it. It’s so de-valued. So, then I would ask you after looking it, and you’ve got tons of value. The work that you put into that, outlining all of the strategies; you wrote all that stuff yourself, right?

Drew: Yes.

Michael: So, this is all totally your product and everything. How long did it take you to put everything together?

Drew: When I was focused…I mean if you took the actual time that I put it together, I probably got it together in a couple of weeks, but those couple weeks were stretched out to a few months. That’s one of my biggest challenges. I always have continuous idea flow and it’s almost a curse because it’s a fair amount of breaks and I’ll focus on something for a little bit and then I realize I need to get this done…

Michael: Did you type it up all yourself?

Drew: I typed it all up.

Michael: That’s a lot of work. You put a lot of work into it for sure. Your hard work is done. You’ve got a product already to sell. How many hours of audio is in the e-book?

Drew: About three and a half.

Michael: You’ve got three and a half hours of content. You’ve got all the strategies outlined. The only thing you need is a way to sell it in a believable way. The best way to do that is you really need a good copywriter to help you put the promotion together. You’ve got the material for him to research. You need a professional copywriter who knows how to write a good sales letter or you need an audio infomercial, something that I could do in developing and creating a sales pitch that could help you sell it. Your market is huge. It’s got to be believable. Before they invest $1,000 in you, they’ve got to know that you’ve done this before. And then another question is if you can make so much money doing this…and I’m just being the devil’s advocate…what any skeptical person would think. They’re going to be saying if you’ve done this, Drew, why the hell are you selling a $14 e-book. And I know you list a couple of reasons on your site, but they’re just not believable.

Drew: To answer that question, it’s kind of interesting because…well, two things. First of all, I do have a genuine joy in educating people.

Michael: I believe you do.

Drew: The other side of it is, like I mentioned to you earlier, when I sink my teeth into something, I go so gung-ho after it and then whether I may lose focus now and again, it’s still one of those things where I’m always researching and delving into it very deeply. Now, I’m at the point where I probably could sit and make $500 or $600 tonight playing poker online, however, I choose not to do that. I love playing poker, just not for six hour a night anymore.

Michael: I understand. You don’t want to do it, but you could do it.

Drew: Absolutely. Actually my winning percentage has gone up dramatically.

Michael: What would you say your winning percentage is?

Drew: It’s probably close to 90% right now. That’s in the money, meaning I’m making some type of profit.

Michael: Every time you play. It’s easy money if you’ve got the patience and you really love the game and you’re willing to put in the time.

Drew: Right.

Michael: It’s like anything else. If you really study and learn your techniques and learn your system, you could put in as many hours as you’re probably working at your regular job and make just as much.

Drew: Right. Absolutely. Probably more…you should make more without a doubt.

Michael: I saw that one video that you have. I didn’t watch the whole thing, but what did that video demonstrate?

Drew: It just demonstrated one system and we don’t need to go into the other system that I have. The other system…instead of playing heads-up, it’s playing with a small sit and go table of like five people.

Michael: What does sit and go mean?

Drew: That means you just join the table, you just sit down, and then when it’s done, you go. You don’t need to worry about re-buying into the big tournament or anything.

Michael: So, it’s a one game table.

Drew: Exactly.

Michael: Anyone can join in at any time?

Drew: If it’s a five person sit and go table and as soon as five people are joined, then that game starts and once it’s done, it’s done.

Michael: How do you like that strategy compared to your heads-up?

Drew: I like it equally, as well. Those games typically take about 45 minutes.

Michael: So, a little longer.

Drew: A litter longer, but the payout is just a little bit, as well.

Michael: How much more compared to the heads-up?

Drew: If you’re playing the $30, five-person table, I think it pays out $75. If you play in a $50 heads-up table, then it doesn’t payout as much.

Michael: And only one person wins at sit and go?

Drew: Two people win.

Michael: The two best hands?

Drew: The last two people…

Michael: The last two people left?

Drew: Right.

Michael: So, those are the main two systems you’re teaching.

Drew: Right.

Michael: What kind of person would enjoy a sit and go compare to a one on one…other than it taking more time and other than the payout being more to sit and go because you have more people? Who would you recommend play one of each or is it just a preference?

Drew: I think it’s just a preference.

Michael: Do you find it more enjoyable with more players than the one on one or it doesn’t matter to you?

Drew: It doesn’t matter to me. To be honest with you, it really depends on the kind of mood I’m in. Every once in a while I’ll still play in one of the big 1,200-1,500 person tournaments, but just to make up a little bit. But rarely do I do well because my major is I get impatient, get bored, and so I need to move on type of thing. But these two systems work perfect for me. I know a lot of not so good players play in those types.

Michael: You know a beginning player is going to do either heads-up one on one or a sit and go because it’s less threatening.

Drew: Exactly.

Michael: So, you’re taking advantage and you don’t have to invest a lot of money. So, you’re taking advantage of all the new players who are coming onboard that are learning about Texas Hold’em from TV. And because you’re more experienced and you’re in the location that these new players are playing, you’re able to take their money basically.

Drew: Yes to a certain degree, absolutely.

Michael: It lets you do 24/7 from any computer in the world as long as you have a credit card. At the height, how much were you playing when you were really into it? Tell me about the days when you were just in love with this stuff and you were kicking ass.

Drew: I was playing anywhere from between four and six hours a day, maybe even sometimes seven or eight hours a day.

Michael: Can you think of your biggest win in a day?

Drew: I think my biggest day was a little over $800.

Michael: How about your biggest loss?

Drew: My biggest loss was probably a profit of about $20.

Michael: When you look at whether you won or lost, you’re looking at after that time period of play, whether it’s 30 minutes or three or four or five hours.

Drew: There have been times when I’ve gone an hour and a half and played three or four heads-up games and lost them all. That’s in the middle of a four-hour stretch. So, after it’s all said and done, I’d still come home ahead.

Michael: So, that computer is like a little ATM machine.

Drew: It can be, absolutely.

Michael: But instead of punching in the numbers and after two minutes getting your money, you have to spend some time.

Drew: Right.

Michael: Do you have a regular job?

Drew: I do. I’m self-employed. I do personal accountability training for organization.

Michael: How long have you been doing that?

Drew: About three years. It’s not my own product. I am a distributor, facilitator, trainer type guy for a guy that developed the program. It’s always been a dream of mine, the entrepreneur thing I absolutely love. It’s always been a dream of mine to really produce my own product…that I can call my own or even make a few bucks versus something everybody else did to get rich. The other thing, too, is my entire career…I really developed the Texas Hold’em thing because I had this absolute fascination with it and tasting that and just getting…I don’t know if infatuation is the right word…and just going nuts over it and just absolutely loving it and then that’s why I originally developed the book because I’m like okay I found these systems. These do work. If the right person can actually apply it, it’s going to work for them. So, I got a high off of developing…wanting to get it out and help people become better poker players.

Michael: How many of these books at $14 have you sold? How long have you had this site up? You told me in the last year you did about $2,000 in sales.

Drew: It’s a little over a year.

Michael: So, in the last year you’ve done about $2,000 sales and what have you spent on your keyword advertising?

Drew: Actually it’s $2,000 in profit.

Michael: Profit, okay. So, you netted $2,000 on it. I think you can sell it for $1,000 or $799 or $599 and have a risk free guarantee, kind of like what I had because it’s worth it. I mean if you can show a guy…you’re giving them this system that they can sit down and in four or five hours can make $800. Do you realize what $800 can do for someone who’s maybe working at a minimum wage job or who loves pokers? That’s big money for someone.

Drew: Right.

Michael: Or even $500 extra a day or $100 extra a day. In two hours, you can show them how to make $100 extra dollars per night playing online poker, as long as they have an online connection and a credit card, and as long as they’re willing to take some time and study your system. And you’ll guarantee it. They’ll get like $100 from virtually three out of four nights they play for the rest of their life and they only pay for the system one time. That’s got to be worth more than $14.

Drew: I hear you. I agree. The reason I got kind of chicken because I initially offered as $47. Had one or two sales…

Michael: What happened? Did they return it or something?

Drew: No, not at all. That was just over a few weeks.

Michael: You’re lacking the confidence in your system and in your program and your customer can smell it. When they see what you’re offering and what you’re claiming and they see the $14 price, it’s just something isn’t right. It’s not believable. Now, if you’ve got a system that’s $1,299 or $2,900, even if you sold one in the whole year, you’re going to come out better than you did this last year.

Drew: Right.

Michael: Just one. And if you upped the price, then it’s worth your while to put a little bit more effort into the copywriting into the sales letter…into maybe a series of audio recordings that will sell people on the system; interviews with you, that kind of promotional stuff that you could have all online. How much are you spending on your pay per click?

Drew: Right now about $150 a month.

Michael: How much is it per click…about…what’s the average on Texas Hold’em?

Drew: About 15 or 16-cents.

Michael: Are there tons of other systems out there on Texas Hold’em?

Drew: There are…not a lot of system that I know of.

Michael: A lot of books on how to play?

Drew: A lot of books on how to play and strategy type things, but not necessarily systems. There’s a couple.

Michael: You said you’ve read every single book you can get your hands on, on the game.

Drew: When that was quoted, there were not as nearly as many as there are now. But when I was developing my book and my system, yes. I mean I actually talked to a handful of pros and, of course, I didn’t record any of the conversation or anything like that where today I could just shoot myself for that.

Michael: Did you talk to some of the pros?

Drew: I did. Now, none of them are the guys you’re going to see on ENCN, but ones that do it for a living. They do play online, but they also go to Vegas.

Michael: Well, who did you learn the most from? Is there any one or two guys that really taught you a lot?

Drew: The one guy that taught me…not even the most. To be honest with you, a lot of them, the same information, but just kind of in different ways, so a lot of the things that I’ve learned weren’t brain surgery. Like some of the good things…like Doyle Brunson, he’s an absolute legend…on some of the certain hands I was having difficulty with, his book helped me understand a little bit more and stuff like that. But see, they’re more the traditional poker players. They go into these huge tournaments…

Michael: And they’re eyeball to eyeball.

Drew: Exactly.

Michael: So, differentiate. How is an online game different from a face-to-face game? You hear poker is a liar’s poker and there’s a lot of psychology where these expert poker players are looking for tells, they’re looking for human nature, winks of the eye, fiddling of the fingers, to determine whether an opponent is bluffing. How does the online game make it an advantage to playing online and winning compared to that face-to-face interaction?

Drew: You could put out a bluff and you could have the worst poker face ever and if you’re at a live table, you’ll get called on it immediately, where when you’re online, they can’t see that. And so, you don’t have to have a good poker face to be successful. And the beauty of online is you can…since it moves so much faster…you can get a feel for the game pretty quickly, as well, as far as the way your opponents bet, how they bet, when they fold; those type of things. That could be a big advantage.

Michael: So, there’s other kind of tells online that are different from a live game?

Drew: Right.

Michael: An expert who’s got a high intelligence playing poker face-to-face can come into an online game and not do so well.

Drew: Potentially, absolutely.

Michael: So, there are two skills. I mean the live game, face-to-face, you’ve got to be very good at reading human nature, right. Isn’t that a big part of poker?

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: But that element is gone when you’re online.

Drew: It really is. I mean there’s certain things that identify tells online, but let’s say that it’s a lot harder to see those.

Michael: That gives it another advantage and more advantage to a player to come online and win.

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: So, you’ve outlined in your course all the strategies and all the systems that you’ve used to make this a winning venture?

Drew: Yes, I have.

Michael: Everything is covered?

Drew: Everything is covered. There are a couple of new things that I’ve just developed…actually I just wrote a new report yesterday after getting fired up after looking at your stuff. It’s really, really geared towards the beginner who has difficulty knowing which hands to play, starting hand. It’s based on a point system that’s really easy to do. It’s not the end-all/beat-all, but certainly if they’re having questions and then their hand doesn’t add up to a certain point range, then they know that they should probably fold it.

Michael: Give me a demographic of who’s playing online? What would you say…are 90% total newbies, inexperienced, have never really put study into the game? How would you breakdown the type of player that you’re going to find online at any given time?

Drew: That’s a great question. A year ago I would say that’s probably accurate. Now, I think it’s probably the number of newbies has diminished and it’s probably starting to stabilize just because of the newness has wore off a little bit. But…I mean the people that buy book today are still…most of them are newer to poker, without a doubt.

Michael: Do you have an idea of how you’d categorize your customer who is buying your book? Are you able to find out or are they just pretty much a name…you’re not really sure?

Drew: Yes, I’m not really sure. I have a handful that actually I’ve helped out. We’ve had dialog, at least via email and those are primarily the newer folks. I’ve had a couple that have given me testimonials that have been playing poker for years that know what they’re doing and were just kind of looking for the “system” to actually make money.

Michael: Well, like I say, I think you’ve done all the hard work. I think you’ve got a great product. You’ve got a great story. I think it just needs to be sold better. I think absolutely starting today…you should quit giving it away at $14. A $14 e-book isn’t worth shit and you need to quit calling it a book. It’s not a book. It’s a system. It is a virtual ATM machine. It is a money making system. Any guy can plug in and start making money with an hour of play, as long as they study your system, as long as they have the knowledge, as long as they learn the techniques that took you years to learn and put together. If they follow your system, it’s not 100% money in the bank, but with some practice and effort, they could be winning 90% of the time just like you do.

Drew: Right.

Michael: And limit their losses, due to this Texas Hold’em online poker phenomenon, which you figured out a way to capitalize on the game without having to be an expert in human psychology where it levels the playing field for a beginner, as long as they have the skills and your system. Do you see what I’m saying?

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: That is worth money. That’s worth $1,000, $2,000, $3,000. But your marketing has got to be good. You’ve got to have a very compelling sales letter and offer and you’ve got to have good, good audio. You know I love audio.

Drew: Absolutely.

Michael: Good audio to promote it. It’s an investment in it, but I think you’ve got such a huge marketplace. I mean there’s literally millions of dollars that could be made just on a product like this because your market is so rabid and so passionate, which is what I really liked about the Black Jack. It’s got that element of easy money and that’s a very strong human desire, easy money.

Drew: Right.

Michael: And it is. You’ve got an easy money system. You really do with something that’s extremely popular and backed up by public opinion. I mean your market is tremendous. I guarantee if you search SRDS, there are mailing lists, there are clubs, there are potential people you could do with joint ventures. Once you have your selling system in place, you could approach another business that is marketing to customer, whether they sell gambling books or how to courses on gambling or whether it’s the lists from casinos who request specific classes on Texas Hold’em or whether it’s subscribers to special pay-per-view Texas Hold’em…there’s lists available of your customers. Anyone watching poker seriously wants to learn the game, but what they really want is an easy way to make money.

Drew: Now, let me ask you this because the one thing that I tried before…I developed the audio and I was selling the e-book and I tried to sell the audio on the backend, which has been miserable. In my opinion…and please tell me what you think…I think I went about it all wrong. I should just sell that all up on the…

Michael: The audio is added value for your customer who buys your book. So, instead of having to sit down and read and focus on it, if they have it on audio and they can burn a CD, they can listen to it in their car. You’re giving them more value. You’re making it more convenient for your customer to listen to your system and that’s added value right there. So, they can be driving to and from work and be learning a little bit about your system. You should give it all away because your audio is really just read transcripts of your book, right?

Drew: Yes, it really is.

Michael: And that’s hard to do. I know because even in my course, I’m not used to reading into the microphone. That’s really one of the first products I’ve ever done like this. It’s hard reading directly into the mike, isn’t it?

Drew: Yes.

Michael: You don’t want to come across like you’re reading, so you’ve really got to concentrate. I know how hard that is just in putting this product together. But still, for someone who really wants to learn, that’s okay. They want it spoon fed to them and having it on audio…I mean you’ve read all the benefits of why it’s nice to have audio. It’s just convenient for your customer.

I would recommend…and you can start slow…I would at least jump that package up to $297 or $597 with an offer like I have. Pay nothing now. I’ll deliver everything to you. I’ll prove it to your first. What do you have to loose? It’s all digital anyway.

Drew: Right.

Michael: Generally, if you deliver on your content, and you deliver what it says in your sales letter or in your audio promotion and you deliver that, people are happy with that as long as you deliver. If you deliver crap and you sell a lot of hype and you deliver crap, they’re going to return it.

Drew: True.

Michael: But if you deliver on what you promise, people are happy with that, they’ve got a fair shake and they won’t return.

Drew: Very good. Well, that’s awesome stuff. Can I ask you a little bit more about your audio infomercial and then your complete service and stuff?

Michael: You’ve got content already. The product you bought from me…it’s pretty easy to follow. You know how you have the five different CDs and the five different titles, 17 Roadblocks, if you wanted to reformat your content and use the titles and stuff that I suggest, it would give it more sales ability. You’ve got all your systems, so everything you have in your e-books, you could format those titles. You could also break your audio down into separate CDs or to separate things like 17 roadblocks that will keep you from winning at Texas Hold’em, seven secrets that’ll stop your Texas Hold’em game stone dead, 17 fast start secrets to get you off to a fast start. Take that model.

Ordinarily, if I were to create your information product, I’d be creating it from scratch, so really what I could offer you is my Internet audio infomercial where we would do…could be 45 minutes, an hour. We’ve done a little bit of it today just in the questions I’ve asked you. We’d definitely do a lot better preparation for it and I would do an interview with you…just like if you went on a radio show…but it would be real in depth and we would cover all the objections and we would create a sales piece, an audio infomercial, an audio sales piece to get that listener interested in trying your system. And this would be catered for your market, potential newbies or people who want to learn to make money at Texas Hold’em.

Now, I’ve got several different ways to go on that. I’ve got kind of like a report that outlines all the benefits that you can do with that. And I don’t know if you’ve seen that. I can email that to you and you could review that. And then I’ve got basically a letter that describes more of the service and we can talk about doing that because you’ve already got your product. And then once you have your audio infomercial, I provide the written transcripts. Now, I work with copywriters who work off my transcripts, so before we create a sales letter, we’ll have the transcripts of this intense recording and basically it makes your copywriter’s job…whoever you hire, whether you hire someone I recommend or whether you do it yourself…I’m going to pull out all of the hot benefits of why someone should use your system. And we’ll have all those transcripts and those transcripts go a long way in creating the body and most of your letter. When you create a sales letter, it’s really just assembling different ideas, but all the ideas I’m going to capture on the audio and we’re going to transcribe them. So, for instance, let’s say we have that audio. That can act as your sales letter, as well. In the report…I’m not going to go into it now…but in the report, you’ll see ten different ways you can use that audio to sell your system. And if you bump your system up to a price that’s equal to what you’re claiming, $999 or $599, whatever you’re comfortable with…it could be $1,399, $1,499…and then once you sell one and make some profit, it’s worth it. If you add up all the time that you’ve invested in putting this together…the weeks of writing and the research that you’ve done and testing out the system and taking the chances on losing money…I mean that’s real value.

Drew: Right.

Michael: And if you remove the risk 100% from the prospect, they’ve got nothing to lose. They can try your system out for free without risk. And like I said, even if 50% of them return, you’re still going to come out way ahead than giving this thing away at $14. That’s your problem right there.

Creating the audio infomercial could be anywhere from $800 to $1,500…maybe a little more or a little less. I’m not exactly sure, but I can give you a quote on it. I’ll email you a link to the report, just to get a little more educated on what you can do with the audio once we have it nailed down. And I know you said money was tight, but you can think about whether that would be a good investment.

Drew: Sure, absolutely. One last quick question, I just want to take a side step of the Texas Hold’em talk. Everything you’ve given me is very good stuff, it’s very powerful, and I am going to take your advice on a few things here for sure.

Michael: No problem.

Drew: The other thing that I have a very, very strong passion for is sales. I’ve been in sales and sales management for years and years and years and I’ve had all the high tech training and all this stuff and I just feel that people have over complicated the selling industry. I’m not talking online selling…cold calling and all that stuff. I’ve outlined a lot of stuff, just never taken it to that next level to where…this TV thing that you outlined here…I purchased earlier…makes sense. Now, how much would that entire package…what type of investment would I be looking at for that?

Michael: I would develop the five CDs…kind of like what you see on my product right there.

Drew: Right.

Michael: So, it would be five separate audio recordings…just like what you’re learning in the product you got from me.

Drew: That’s awesome because that’s exactly how your product is laid out.

Michael: You just do what I do.

Drew: This is very cool.

Michael: I want to bring up a difference. The difference in what we’re going to do and what you’re seeing on my website is that I wrote all mine out first, which took many, many hours. And to be able to write that all out, that’s what most people aren’t going to be able to do. Those words are what are really important. Now, I just read mine into a recorder as you listen to the recordings, just like you read your Texas Hold’em book into the audio. But what we’re going to do is we’re not going to read it, we’re not writing it out. We’re going to use a much more powerful interview process to do this…between you and I…that natural interaction. And there’s a big difference compared to the bonus interviews you heard and compared to me reading.

Drew: I agree.

Michael: It’s much more free flowing, powerful, and with the editing, it becomes much more effective. What I did was ten times more time consuming and harder and more expensive by writing out a script. The script is everything. It’s like writing a book. It took forever to do. When we do it, we’re going to do interview style.

Drew: Very cool.

Michael: But we’ll prepare well for it. Using the brain mapping technique is one way or if you don’t want to do that, you can just use your simple list, outline. You know out to make an outline…like you did in your book of all the ideas, and I have that and we follow it. We go back and forth and I pull it all out of you.

Drew: You mentioned on…it’s a product that I just purchased…about the advantages of hard products like CDs and stuff like that. Do you still do that or…

Michael: I mix it up. I’ve got several different products. I’ve got a couple of products that are 100% digital and in my other products I’ve got hardcopy products. Now, my high end product…if you’re doing…and that’s a good question…let’s say you do you do your Texas Hold’em product and we’re up to $599, $699, $1,000, $2,900 or whatever you want, you’ve got to go with a hard product because you’ve got to deliver something physical. When people are paying that price, they want something that they can hold. You don’t have to, but you’re going to have a better chance selling it when they’re getting something when they spend that kind of money. The digital products, for a $14 book, fine. It can be digital. For a $99 product, it can be digital. I’ve got a joint venture product, which has been 100% digital. It’s my joint venture product, which I am going into hard products. So, I’m going to make the CD-ROMs and silkscreen them and then I’ll put the course into a three-ring binder. You just need a good local printer who can do all this stuff. It’s a pain in the ass setting it all up, but once it’s set, then it’s just a matter of when someone orders, you have it all in a box…you can outsource this all to a fulfillment company as you get more and more sales. But it will cut down on your refunds because as you start to get up into the higher dollars amounts, your refunds will be higher if it’s not a physical product. My Art Hamel product is a physical product that we ship in a three-ring binder, transcripts, three volumes of CDs. Like I said, it’s a pain getting the CDs made, but once it’s done…you can do it…once it’s done, you have your masters and when you need to get more, you call your printer and you say I need 20 more sets, put them in three-ring binders, put the covers in, you go pick them up. When you get an order you order your boxes from a supplier like eLine, the next day your boxes are there, get a packing gun, get a UPS account…no big deal.

So, yes, for your product, I would go physical. So, what can you do you offer some real physical value? Well, you have the book. Your audio is you just reading the book, correct?

Drew: Right.

Michael: So, you have a bunch of audio CDs. I mean you could break those down into the titles I’m talking about…why I wrote this book…introduction…the rules of Texas Hold’em, poker hand…the rules of Texas Hold’em, how to play…the strategy, eight strategies, seven strategies, six…you could break that up in an eight CD set or a ten CD set, in a nice white binder with a nice cover; ten different CDs. And you have the headlines. You can use the headline ideas in the course that I gave you. Then you have your book, which you can put in a three-ring binder. You can add other added value stuff like what we talked about. You could probably nail down a couple of interview. I can do an interview with an expert for you. That’s part of the package. We could work it out. Even though most of your product is created, I could line up an interview for you for your product and do a real intensive interview selling Texas Hold’em, selling people on the game and the fun of it. We could add that bonus interview with world champion player, whoever, and they get the audio CD as a bonus and then they get the written transcript as a special report with one of the best Texas Hold’em players in Texas.

Just like this audio recording we’re doing. We’ve been going for about an hour. So, I’m going to get this recording transcribe and then I’m going to have 60 pages of transcripts. And guess where it’s going to go? It’s going to be added value to the system you just bought. And the more I talk, the more I make because the more value I add, the higher the price is going to go. And then maybe as I get case studies and more recordings…see, doing the recordings is the easiest way to add value and you can do it yourself.

You can find five regional winners at Texas Hold’em from all different walks of life. You can interview a housewife who plays on her down time. You can interview an 18-year-old kid. You can interview an 80-year-old guy. You can find Texas Hold’em players from all different walk of life that fit different demographic markets. Do you see? So, in your sales letter, not only are you going to get this, you’re going to get in the trenches secrets from a housewife who plays two hours a night, from an 18-year-old kid…you see different stories of different people. So, those different demographics will appeal to different demographics seeing your offer when you mail it or when you offer it or when you do a joint venture. That’s not hard to do, to do some interviews and get them transcribed. Maybe if it’s a $1,000 package, they’ll get another set of six special bonus audio interviews with real players. And that was in that one report on really how to beef up the value of your product by doing these interviews. And you maybe able to do a better interview that me because you understand the game. That’s if you’re interviewing experts. If we’re selling a package that’s going to teach a newbie player how to win at the game, since I’m new and I’m talking to someone who is new, I could do that interview.

Drew: Right.

Michael: I don’t have to know everything. I know what to sell. I want to sell the ease of it. You’re a mother of three. When the kids go to bed, you go online at night. You make $100. Or you worked all day at your factory job and you made $80. Do you see? That’s the selling part. I mean the bottom line is we’re selling a shortcut to money and you’ve got to appeal to your prospects. That’s what you’ve got to resell over and over again. This is a shortcut to more money. Yes, it takes a little more work, but it’s easier than the work you’re doing now.

Drew: Right.

Michael: It’s safe and it’s legal and you’ll give them the shortcut. Now, yes, you’re going to have to study. Most people that get this course, three out of four won’t do shit with it because they don’t believe in themselves, because they don’t believe they can do it. But if you’re the one out of three that believes in yourself and you take my system…see, I know it can be done because you’ve done it and you’re just selling them on it to give it a try without any risk. And 50% of those people are going to end up paying and that when that customer pays, it’s transferred to your confidence…the confidence in your words, in your sales letter. The way you have it right now, it’s not telegraphed. That confidence does not come out, especially when they see the price.

Drew: Right.

Michael: It just doesn’t match. They don’t believe you. That’s why you’re not selling.

Drew: Right. It makes sense. No doubt about it.

Michael: I would leverage off of all this hard work. You’ve got a fantastic market. You really do. What a huge, hungry, rabid, caveman, emotional sale you’ve got. Easy money. There’s a great appeal to what you have. One of the best…one of the best that I’ve seen and I think you should stick with it and just develop it.

Drew: Very good. I will. The first thing I’m going to do is I’m going to up the price.

Michael: Up the price, for sure. Can you change the offer to a pay nothing now, 30-days…do it like I have. Just follow the system. You can use the order form that I use where they pay nothing. It would help to have a secure order, but if someone is really rabid, I give other options to pay. They can copy and paste or they can email their credit card information. If they really want it, they’ll get the information to you. Look at my order form, how I have it and I have secure pages and it’s a real secure order form, which helps. It cuts down on the people who are fearful. But if you don’t want to do that now, you don’t have to, but make it a 30-day risk free offer. Bump it up. If you want to take it in baby steps since the only thing you’re going to do is change the price, bump it up to $97 or bump it up to $197. Do it at $297. Do it at $297 and do a risk free offer and see what happens over the next month. And be thinking of some of the ideas. I’ll email you the stuff on the Internet audio infomercial and if you get some money and you want to invest in it, I’ll be glad to do it with you.

Drew: It’s great stuff Michael. I’m a believer in what you do, so I appreciate it.

Michael: It works. And then I will get you this recording. I’ll get it up online later today or by Monday.

Drew: Okay, awesome. That’ll be fantastic.

Michael: All right.

Drew: Have a great weekend.

Michael: Take it easy. Bye.