see
part
two list
below |
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Find Out What It Really Takes To Pull
More Sales And Profits From Every Ad Or
Sales Letter You Ever Use |
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Here is another
exciting interview from my copywriting series.
Several years ago, I found a direct response
copywriter. His name is Ben Settle. And when
someone had sent me a newsletter that he had
written about my www.hardtofindads.com site,
after reading that copy, I knew this guy was
really good and then I knew that I would want to
be doing some work with him soon. Ben has since
written several winning sales letter for me and
my website at
https://www.hardtofindseminars.com/
, including my
Secret Loophole product, my
Joint Venture Magic product, and my
Art Hamel Seminar product. He’s also done
revisions of my letter for my
HMA Marketing Consulting Training and
several others.
Recently I interviewed
Ben on some of the most frequently asked
questions people ask me about copywriting.
There’s a gold mine of information in this
interview and I strongly recommend you listen to
this more than once. These secrets have put a
lot of money in my pocket and they will do the
same for you if you apply them to your own copy.
Now, some of the secrets you’re going to learn
about in this interview include: How to get
unlimited ideas for your ads, products, and
other writing by playing video games…The strange
but scientifically sound reason why you should
write your headlines under water…How to write
sales letters, newsletters, and books while
driving your car…A secret way of using spell
check on your computer to eliminate writers
block and procrastination forever…How to make
everything you say in your ads one hundred
percent believable and credible without needing
testimonials, credentials, or other proof
elements…What exact questions to ask a client to
get the best material for the ad you’re writing.
You’ll learn how to make even deadly boring
products sound exciting and fascinating. You’ll
learn two ways to write copy for own products
and services without sounding like an arrogant
chest pounding jerk. You’ll also learn how to
find time to study and learn about copywriting
even if you have a job, family commitments, and
other adult responsibilities. And in addition,
you’ll learn how to make outrageous claims and
exciting promises in your ads without sounding
hype.
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How
The Japanese "Cracked The Code" To
Online Advertising Testing
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Testing your website and conversion process is
the only way to get maximum profits in minimum
time but most people don't know how to conduct a
test that gets good results.
"Tagoochy" is a
funny sounding name. It's a Japanese name. And
we all know that when it comes to business the
Japanese lead the world in Technology! It's this
same technology that created the need for more
efficient testing applications for
manufacturing. A wiled haired genius and
national hero in Japan names Tagoochy created a
system for testing that works with online
advertising optimization.
Simply put, if
you are trying to increase your profits and
reduce your costs associated with your online
and offline marketing and advertising campaigns,
you need to know about Tagoochy.
The
Tagoochy Advertising Method is used to
"compress" the number of tests you have to run
to get superior response rates and results. If
applied correctly, this testing method causes
significant increases in advertising response in
record time. This 50 minutes recording is with
David B, a trained Tagoochy expert. This
interview will reveal the power behind this
Japanese testing miracle and show you how to get
the response and conversion increased you need
to decimate your competitors and to survive in
today's competitive market.
So what is the
tagoochy method and what's the big deal?
Learn in this recording... The most
common and biggest mistake most make when
testing. The one variable that is critical
to increasing your online ROI. (90% of the
online marketers are watching the wrong
factors.) What method is most effective to
manage your online testing. The
manufacturing principle that applies to all
business growth. The critical design elements
that must be held for the components themselves
so create maximum response. How to perform a
"forced survey" in your marketplace. What is
the proper sequence for testing? Where do
you use this method in your sales process.
What kind of increases can you really
expect? Why "Split Testing Thinking" does
not work (actually fails) if used with Tagoochy
Algorithms.
For more
information on this breakthrough advertising and
marketing testing system, contact David directly
at 1-866-300-1568.
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"Nobody Should Be Allowed To Have
Anything To Do With Marketing,
Advertising, Copywriting, or Direct Mail
Until They've Listened To This Interview
At Least 7 Times"
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Introducing The
Clyde Bedell Advertising System
Sit back and
listen as I interview Barry Bedell in this
exclusive Five part presentation about the real
"Father Of Advertising" Clyde Bedell.
You have the
lucky fortune of hearing this interview with
Barry Bedell, the son of the great advertising
genius Clyde Bedell. I hope you'll be as
excited as I was hanging on to every word in
this amazing adventure about a man many in the
advertising and marketing fields have never
known.
You'll get a
detailed and personal account about the history
of this great advertising legend. And you'll
hear it from the man who loved him and knew him
best. This set of recording is designed to teach
you about a proven system of advertising you
have never been exposed to before. I know you
will enjoy what I have put together for you in
this exclusive presentation.
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Michael Senoff
On Copywriting
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April is a working mother of two young boys. She
e-mailed me frustrated and in search for some
honest advice about copywriting. April had
recently invested money into a copywriting
training system. She was disappointed with the
product and the coaching that was promised with
it. Listen as I guide April through some simple
yet overlooked principles on copywriting. You'll
hear how my hate for copywriting forced me to
create easy shortcuts to creating compelling
copy that sells. I unload all my most closely
guarded secrets about copywriting in this
exclusive audio recording from
hardtofindseminars.com This is a one hour call.
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You can't hire
Carl Gelletti today to write copy for you. Why?
because any smart copywriter knows you can make
a whole lot more writing copy for your own
products then you can for clients. It's been
said if you can hire a copywriter, they probably
aren't that good. Carl Galletti has risen to the
top of the world of direct-response advertising
and is now considered by many to be one of the
best freelance copywriters and marketing experts
in the world. I had the pleasure of interviewing
Carl and I can attest that he is unique as a
copywriter because of his vast marketing skills
Many of the top direct response advertisers used
Carl to write advertising copy for them
including Gary Halbert, author of The Gary
Halbert Letter. Here is what Gary says about
Carl..
"Carl Galletti is, perhaps, the
most serious student of the masters of marketing
I've ever encountered. "How good is he? Well, to
give you a clue, Carl has written several direct
mail sales letters for Jay Abraham. Jay Abraham
is considered to be the top marketing consultant
in the country. Jay charges $5000 per hour for
his telephone consultations and his seminars
cost as much as $20,000 for five days.
Carl's client list is diverse. He has worked
with authors, professional speakers, publishers,
computer companies, contractors, executive
search firms, printers, training organizations,
jewelry manufacturers, schools, health
technology firms, and the American Red Cross.
Anyone who is serious about learning copywriting
and marketing can benefit from Carl's advice.
This interview will take you on a guided tour
from the days when Jay Abraham and Gary
Halbert were just getting started. You'll hear
stories about the great Robert Alan, John
Childers, Gary Halbert, Jay Abraham, Brian Keith
Voiles, Ted Thomas and many others. Carl knew
them all because he was there from the start.
This is a fast paced jam-packed intensive 111
minute interview. It's split into three easy to
listen to parts. You can gain 25 years of
copywriting and marketing experience in less
time then watching two episodes of Survivor.
If you truly want to learn how to sell more,
sell faster, write better copy (that brings in
the money), and market your product smarter, you
need to listen to every word in this exclusive
interview with Carl Galletti. You can only find
this one here for a limited time only. Enjoy.
The first part of this recording is a bit hard
to hear. But it clears up in part's two and
three.
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How Brian Keith Voiles Went From A
Minimum Wage Brick-Yard Worker, To Part-time
Janitor, To Professional Magician, To Brain
Tumor Survivor, To One Of The World’s Greatest
Living Copywriters |
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Learn about 36% and getting phenomenal
results and learn how to get it for your own
swipe file.
Hear
Brian's true story of how he survived a deadly
softball size brain tumor in the middle of his
head.
Hear
exactly how Brian sold 3000 copywriting courses
on his first major direct mail campaign.
Hear why
Brian thinks going offline with your product may
be the best way to rake in big money with your
product of service.
Learn why
Brian cuts and tapes hundreds of headlines to
his wall before he picks “the one” for his
client’s sales letter.
Learn how
if your loaded with great testimonials and a
risk free proposition, you can sell anything
with the write copywriting skills.
Hear what
Brian does first before he writes one word of
copy in any letter.
Learn who
to talk to in your research phase and who to
record twice..
Learn why
recording your conversations will get you mouth
watering sales copy.
You’ll hear
specific results and success stories Brian has
generated for world-class marketers like Jay
Abraham, Gary Halbert, Ted Nicholas, Yanik
Silver and more.
Hear what
to do when a client gets too lazy to mail your
letter.
Learn one
legal clause to place in your contract to
protect you before you write one word of copy
for a client.
Learn
Brian's secret for generating headlines that
smash controls and how to get them to pop into
your subconscious at will.
What are you
waiting for? Start playing the interview now.
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Story-telling Advice From A Hollywood
Screen-writer
How To Effectively Use
Story Telling In Your Copy To Sell More Of Your Ideas,
Products Or Services |
Ruben, a screen writer and a teacher of screen
writing skills, was in the process of creating
an information product on how to write
compelling stories, screenplays, or stage plays.
He was basing the content of his product on his
own personal experience, various teachings from
his mentors over the years, seminars, and
courses.
As Ruben was creating his
product, he realized that his techniques not
only applied to screen writing, but many other
areas such as:
Creating more effective marketing and sales
presentations.
Helping teachers to present their lesson
plans more effectively.
Teaching lawyers how to present their cases
better.
Telling stories to children.
Improving personal relationships.
… and the list goes on because telling and
listening to stories are such an integral
part of our daily lives!
Ruben presents the parts of a successful
screenplay. First, you have to have an idea for
a story. After you have a story, the screenplay
becomes your story in writing – what the
audience will see and hear. He explains that the
screenplay is a “blueprint” and gives us some
simple examples.
Listen as he discusses
what the best structure is for any story and
presents several elements essential to create a
successful, compelling story. Understanding
story structure will become important as you
continue to listen to this interview.
Ruben goes on to teach some other keys to
creating a good story. There must be a conflict,
whether it’s an outer or inner conflict. An
outer conflict may be another character. An
inner conflict may be a character’s self doubts
or fears. The writer must make sure that the
audience will care about the story and stay to
see the end.
For example, Ruben gives a
list of great techniques to make the main
character more identifiable to the audience.
This is the key to a successful story.
Subsequently, Ruben reveals that the same
principles used to create a great screenplay can
be applied to just about any facet of business
or personal life.
For example, in a
business situation where perhaps you are a sales
person trying to make a sale to a potential
buyer, you can become what Ruben terms “a
Dramatic Strategist.” This involves a mind shift
that makes both you, the sales person as well as
the potential client both “characters” in a
story. In fact, Ruben suggests that you keep in
mind that each of you would be the main
character in your own lives – each of you with a
different goal.
When there are two
characters, there may be a conflict. In a
selling situation, things such as price, terms,
and conditions can become the conflicts.
Ruben suggests that you will be a more
successful sales person or marketer if you aware
of both your role as a protagonist in your own
drama paradigm and your client’s role as the
protagonist in his or her own drama paradigm.
Further, you should not try to hide or minimize
the conflicts of the situation. Instead,
identify and resolve these conflicts with the
client.
Make yourself identifiable to
your client, just as an audience should identify
with the main character of a story. Develop the
trust and rapport with the client so that he or
she sees you as an authority and that there is a
feeling of affinity between the two of you.
This interview really presents a unique approach
to understanding human nature and dealing with
conflicts in a very imaginative way. I know
you’ll enjoy it! This recording is 46 minutes.
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Advice In
“Kick Starting” Your Copywriting Business.
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This is a
consultation that I did with a gentleman named Mark
who needed some advice in “kick starting” is
copywriting business. This short recording is
packed with great information for new and veteran
copywriters! You may get some ideas for
business avenues that you haven’t thought of before.
At the beginning of our
conversation, Mark was mainly concerned about what the name
of his copywriting business should be. His first
thought was to use his surname. However, he believed
that his surname might be too unusual for someone to
pronounce. You’ll hear how we discuss sole
proprietorships and the option of incorporating after
getting started, obtaining customers, and making some money.
Find out what Mark finally decides to use as his business
name.
Listen as I give Mark
an idea about obtaining copywriting work by researching
Ebay. Look for closed auctions for big ticket
items where the item did not sell. Look at the
Ebay ad to see what could have made the item sell.
Sometimes it is simply because there was no research
done on the item and thus, there was not a good
description of the item or its features.
Contact the
seller by email and negotiate to re-write the ad
and re-run the auction. If the item sells,
you would get a negotiated percentage of the
sales price. Of course, you would need an
option agreement and some sort of non-disclosure
agreement as well as software that would
prohibit the seller from printing or copying
your ad – but you’ll hear me explain the details
of everything you would need to accomplish this.
Listen as I give example of a generic email that
could be modified for any auction and sent to
sellers.
I advise Mark
to research unsuccessful closed auctions for
boats, houses, machinery, and other high priced
items. And don’t just stay with Ebay.
Look into the real estate market for beautiful
homes that just aren’t selling. Most of
the time, real estate ads just don’t do a good
enough job of explaining the real advantages of
owning that particular home. The very best
way to advertise a home is to interview the
current homeowner about the home itself, the
neighborhood, the schools, etc. – important
things that real families are interested in.
Listen to my own
experience with using written copy in
conjunction with audio for both a product and
for real estate.
Mark certainly
loved that idea and was going to start researching
completed auctions for big ticket items on Ebay
right away! The key is to identify poor ads
for great products. You must also learn to
negotiate well and then you will have a great niche
market!
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Advice In
“Kick Starting” Your Copywriting Business
Update
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Welcome to an
update with Mark, a copywriter that I previously
did a consultation with to advise him about some
of the best ways to kick start his new
copywriting business.
You will hear how
Mark had, indeed, implemented some of the
strategies that I had recommended – specifically
about how to obtain clients using Ebay.
Here’s what Mark did:
He
researched Ebay for completed listings by
category where the item did not sell.
The categories that he has investigated thus
far include cars, boats, real estate,
trading cards, and some other big ticket
items.
He
developed a sales letter that he sent to these
Ebay sellers. A copy of Mark’s sales
letter is included in the transcription below.
-
He sent out
between twenty and thirty of these sales letters
to the unsuccessful Ebay sellers and received a
10% response (not bad for a start!).
He believes
that he may be able to strike a deal to re-write
one of his respondent’s Ebay ads with his
copywriting skills.
The great part
about Mark’s new venture is that it took him
less than an hour to send out all of his sales
letters! He admits that this type of sales
approach is much easier than approaching
businesses cold. He also admits that Ebay
has so many auctions that he could never even
scratch the surface of all of the closed,
unsuccessful auctions that he could approach
(Hint: Some copywriting competition wouldn’t
hurt Mark!).
In our
conversation, Mark says that he needs to develop
more of a solid system to research and follow
through with potential clients. You will
hear me suggest that he look into implementing
the HMA System’s Opportunity Analysis into his
sales letter and follow through phases.
I send him
links to specific interviews and consultations
on my web site dealing with Opportunity
Analyses. If used, the Opportunity
Analysis would provide a proven methodology to
help his potential clients to grow their
businesses or sell their big ticket items.
It might also open opportunities for Mark to do
more marketing for his clients – not just
copywriting – because it would entrench Mark in
his potential clients’ businesses.
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Herschell Gordon
Lewis—Author Of 20 Books On Advertising, Writing
And Direct Marketing—Reveals Secrets Of Success
In Copywriting
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Even though I
had heard his name for years, I never gave
Hershell much thought until I was searching for
one of his books, "World’s Greatest Direct Mail
Sales Letters Of All Time." This book is not to
be confused with a similar book by Richard
Hodgson titled "The World’s Greatest Direct Mail
Sales Letters Of All Time." An interesting fact
I learned about Hershell is that within the
Collector’s Plate industry he is known as the
"King of Direct Mail." You may have seen
collector’s plates advertised in the Sunday
newspaper and other widely-circulated
publications. I used to wonder why so many
people invested in these plates until I talked
with Hershell personally. Hershell Gordon Lewis
is a well-connected expert who has been involved
in the direct mail industry for many years. He
is the author of more than twenty books on
advertising and marketing, and is the former
chairman of BJK&E Direct. He now heads Lewis
Enterprises, a creative source. He is also
chairman of Communicomp, a full-service direct
marketing agency affiliated with True North
Communications based in Fort Lauderdale,
Florida. On this audio clip, prepare to receive
a real history lesson on some amazing things. My
conversation with Hershell was one of my most
interesting, illuminating talks. In it, I take
you from the days of Hershell’s first direct
selling job as a door-to-door salesman through
his development and evolution into a
prestigious, powerhouse ad agency owner. This is
one talk you will feel compelled to listen to
three or four times. It is that eye opening.
Here's A Rare Recording From Gary C.
Halbert A Marketing Legend In The Direct
Response Mail Order Business |
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If you are
unfamiliar with Gary Halbert, you are in for a
treat. This guy is my favorite marketing
instructor on the subjects of direct mail and
how to write killer advertising copy. He
delivers marketing information in a powerful
style, without all the BS. Gary's pre-1994
material is hard to find. Jay Abraham has done
several joint ventures with Gary so I have run
across a lot of his work. Go to my Products page
to see which Gary Halbert programs I have
available. How much would you pay to attend a
Gary Halbert seminar? Here is a recording from a
Group M Marketing seminar in Hot Springs,
Arkansas, put on by Bill Myers in the early
1990s. Enjoy this 31-minute recording featuring
Gary Halbert. You'll love it!
Classified Advertising
Work Smart, Make Money,
Retire Early With Two-step Classified Advertising
Promotions
This is a great
recording of John Eger. When John Eger speaks,
direct marketers listen. At the time of this
recording, John and his partner Phil Kratzer
were the nation's leading experts on classified
advertising. John's low-cost, 2-step direct
response methods allow both large and small
advertisers to test with the least possible
risk. This recording was from the Bill Myers
seminar in Hot Springs National Park, Arkansas.
John presents the secrets that have helped many
work smart, make money and retire early. This
recording is from the Bill Myers direct mail
boot camp.
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Why Settle For 1% Response When You Can get
50% Response With "Effective Copywriting" – Learn how To Hone Your Skills To
Improve Your Sales
Good, captive
copywriting is essential in today’s
marketing field. I got a call from a
gentleman who was new to the copywriting
field and he was looking for some advice on
how to improve his own skills. The
information I shared with him is invaluable:
I gave him direct resources he could use and
I discussed different products and aspects
of these products that are currently
available. Best of all, though, I shared
with him the underlying implications of good
copywriting and explored why and how many
people are doing it all wrong. This is
information you can’t afford to miss – the
insight you’ll gain will be unique Since I
interview and review marketing gurus all day
for a living, you can guess I know what
works and what does not.
When To Sue Your
Copywriter-281 Pound Body Builder Spills His Gut
And Reveals All He Knows About How To Write
Killer Web Site Copy
Would you like
honest, no-fluff advice on internet marketing,
copywriting, mailing lists, and other business
tips? Listen to the interview with Mr.
Taylor Trump, a successful copywriter, small
business management specialist, and online and
offline marketing specialist.
The purpose of
this interview is to share Taylor’s success and
how you, too, can became successful by applying
the internet marketing techniques and principles
he learned from marketing experts, such as Jay
Abraham, and a secret of top copywriters that is
not always obvious.
In this interview,
you will learn about
How
motivation and drive enabled him to pick up
concepts from marketing gurus —most from
purchasing materials on my Web site,
https://www.hardtofindseminars.com/.
How he
applied marketing principles and concepts to his
first business and continued with Internet
marketing.
How he made
money without doing all the labor himself and
establishing deals with cost-saving,
“do-it-yourself” contracts
“The
Marketing Genius Letter,” a newsletter to learn
strategies about mining the hidden assets of
your business, as well as marketing to and
outwitting, outsmarting, and crushing your
competition.
A marketing
portal site with over 100,000 links to articles
and resources, general marketing information,
niche marketing, target marketing, and how to
market.
Helping
people get close to their dreams by offering
solutions to their problems
Value of
researching your target market, knowing each
customer, prospects, or client and the actual
motivations, aspirations, and “hot buttons” of
each.
Using lists,
direct mail successes, and how to go about it.
You, too,
can be successful with your business by learning
from Taylor Trump’s advice about Internet
marketing, copywriting, and using lists. You
will then be able to help your customers get
close to their dreams by offering them the right
solutions!
Press the
green play button for each part and download the
mp3 below. You can also download the transcript
and mp3 audio files to reinforce your learning.
Copywriting
Expert John Carlton On How To Make Your Copy
Sell Better Than Ever
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Here is a rare
recording of John Carlton from the early 1990s
at a Bill Myers seminar. John had over 10 years
of copywriting experience before this recording.
He was a freelance writer who agencies hired to
do the work their own writers couldn’t do. He
has written for Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, and
Gary Halbert. John made big money as a writer
for some of the largest direct mailers in the
world, including Rodale Books and Boardroom. His
writing brings in millions for his clients. This
is a rare recording from the information
marketing book camp in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
This recording is 17 minutes long. Check out his
course, "Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets Of A
Marketing Rebel -- An insider shortcut guide to
creating sensational ads that will supercharge
your business, your wealth, and your life even
if you flunked English!"
How To Electrify
Your Copywriting
The Joe Vitale Way
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Joe “Mr. Fire” Vitale is by far one of the
hottest copywriters around. But he didn’t just
wake up one morning with a million-dollar sales
letter in his head. He had to study, plan,
research and test. And in this audio, you’ll
hear all about how he develops his winning sales
letters and the thrill that comes along with
each success.
When Joe first started out, he was working
miserable jobs selling Chryslers and
encyclopedias. He knew right away that direct
sales wasn’t for him – mainly because he could
only reach one customer at a time. He quickly
found that with copywriting, he could maximize
his time by reaching thousands around the world
with the exact same effort. And that’s when the
money started pouring in.
So, if you’ve ever dreamed of the kind of
success that Joe has had, this is the interview
for you because he shares all the little-known
secrets about his life, his influences and his
unusual sources of inspiration.
Key Concepts From The Interview
• How to write a surefire sales letter full of
enthusiasm, excitement and electricity
• The three most important aspects of the
copywriting formula – believe it or not, the
copy itself is actually third
• How to train your unconscious mind to write
like a pro
• How to add “readable writing” and “plain talk”
to your copy. If you make your sales letters
natural, conversational and fun to read – your
audience will likely show their appreciation
with their checkbooks
• How Joe makes more money off of e-books than
he ever thought possible – and why he’ll never
go back to a traditional book publisher again
• All about Joe’s most famous book, Hypnotic
Writing – how he came up with the idea and the
title – and how he turned it into a huge success
Joe has been studying all the great marketing
experts since he was a teenager – from the
famous to the obscure. So when I asked him who
his biggest influences were, he gave me some
pretty interesting answers. So sit back and get
to know Joe “Mr. Fire” Vitale, an incredible
copywriter, researcher and promoter who will
really help you spark your sales copy.
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"At Last - A
Website Conversion Expert Will Take You By The
Hand And Show You Step-By-Step Exactly How To
Maximize Your Internet Profits In Minimum Time!"
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Widely
Recognized as "The A Website Conversion Expert,"
Dan is the "go-to" Internet copy genius who's
created hundreds of money-making ads and sales
letters for clients in more than 49 different
industries...Dan has a track record of selling
over $25.7 million of merchandise and services.
If Dan is such a wizard with words, perhaps
you're wondering why you haven't heard of him
before. It's because Dan doesn't seek out the
spotlight. This "quiet giant" keeps a low
profile in an industry over-run with
self-promoting, self-proclaimed, and often
self-deluded "experts." Instead of stoking the
"Lock Publicity Machine," Dan focuses on stoking
the fires of success for his small business
clients. Instead of devoting his time to his
celebrity status, he spends hour after hour,
week after week, working for the little guys...
and loving it. Dan has resuscitated copy that
was previously in "critical condition" and
helped his clients double and triple their
conversion rates... some as much as 417%. The
strategies, techniques and psychological tactics
Dan employs are irresistible to consumers. They
produce dramatic results and spell the
difference between failure and success, and
between success and "super-stardom" for his
clients. This interview is 60 minutes |
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The
Psychology of Selling: How to Use People’s Unconscious
Decision Making Process to Make the Sale |
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You will be energized
when you listen to this two-part interview with Ken
Ellsworth. Ken is an expert in the application of
hidden persuasion techniques to increase sales. The
fresh ideas about how to motivate your prospects to
buy will amaze you! Ken’s real-life application case
studies provide a wealth of information about how to
apply psychological principles to sell and market
your products and services.
The purpose of this audio recording is
to explain ….
You will learn about
How people unconsciously make buying decisions
How to use psychological principles to uncover what
buyers want
How the principles and techniques apply to
one-on-one selling and marketing programs
You’ll hear examples and case studies of
application of persuasion techniques
Be sure to listen to this two-part program to find
out how you can elicit the “Wow” factor from your
customers. Whether you are seeking fresh sales and
marketing ideas or trying to get out of a sales
slump, this program will provide the techniques you
can put to immediate use to increase sales.
Press the green play button for each part and
download the mp3 below.
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